"I Respectfully Disagree": How to Navigate Conflicting Views with Justin Jones-Fosu
Justin Jones-Fosu - Author, Founder, Speaker and Dad
Justin Jones-Fosu is a husband, full-time daddy of 2 high-energy kids, and he also recently summited one of the 7 Summits (the tallest mountain on each continent). He also happens to be a highly sought-after business speaker, social entrepreneur, and meaningful work researcher. He is the founder and CEO of Work. Meaningful. where he speaks 50-60 times per year to companies, organizations, and associations in the US and Internationally on meaningful work and diversity/inclusion.
We live in a world that feels so divided. Where cancel culture is rife. And where righteously offering our own opinion rather than trying to find common ground has become the norm.
So how do we connect to those around us, how do we find the common thread that can bring us back together.
In this conversation we extend to you the invitation to rethink and recalibrate how we treat one another in what is a deeply moving conversation with Justin Jones-Fosu.
Justin not only helps us understand how to Respectfully Disagree in this conversation, but he helped us reconnect to our common humanity, and recognise that despite the surface-level differences we each have, be it politically, religiously, culturally – this common humanity is something much much more important and profound. And something we each have a responsibility for acknowledging.
This conversation was quite emotional for us and left us speechless – something that we’ve never experienced.
Justin is so much more than a brilliant author and speaker, he’s truly an exemplar of Human Leadership, and a beacon of light that inspired us to want to do better and be better.
Our advice to you, create the time and space to really HEAR and FEEL this conversation. The wisdom in this conversation will change how you live and lead and if allow it.
Our hope is that you emerge from this conversation feeling more connected to yourself, and everyone one around you as we did. Let’s dive in.
Learn more about Justin Jones-Fosu here:
Justin is passionate about helping organizations and individuals take ownership of their mindset, purpose, and performance to achieve amazing results. He is the author of Your WHY Matters NOW, The Inclusive Mindset, and his latest book: I Respectfully Disagree: How to Have Difficult Conversations in a Divided World challenges the reader to spend more time building bridges than erecting barriers. He is passionate about turning events into memorable experiences with his humorous and engaging delivery as well as his research-based content!
He is the Chairman of the Board of Work Meaningful Foundation where they support educational initiatives on the continent of Africa and the country of the United States.
Connect with Justin Jones-Fosu on LinkedIn and find his work here.
And find his brilliant book I Respectfully Disagree: How to Have Difficult Conversations in a Divided World.
Episode Transcript:
[00:00:00] Alexis Zahner: We live in a world that feels so divided, where cancel culture is rife, and where righteously offering our own opinion, rather than trying to find common ground, has become the norm. So how do we connect to those around us, and how do we find the common thread that can bring us back together? Welcome to We Are Human Leaders.
[00:00:38] Alexis Zahner: I'm Alexa Sarna and together with Sally Clark, today we extend to you the invitation to rethink and recalibrate how we treat one another in what is a deeply moving conversation with Justin Jones Fosu. Justin not only helps us understand how to respectfully disagree in this conversation, but he helps us to reconnect to our common humanity.
[00:01:06] Alexis Zahner: And to recognize that despite the surface level differences we each have, be it politically, religiously, culturally, Our common humanity is something much, much more important and profound, and something that we each have a responsibility for acknowledging and connecting to. This conversation was quite emotional for Sally and myself, and left us speechless, which is something we've never experienced.
[00:01:37] Alexis Zahner: Justin is so much more than a brilliant author and speaker. He's truly an exemplar of human leadership and a beacon of light that has inspired us to want to do better and be better. My advice to you is to Create the time and space to really hear and feel this conversation. The wisdom in this conversation will change how you live and lead if you allow it to.
[00:02:08] Alexis Zahner: Our hope is that you emerge from this conversation feeling more connected to yourself and everyone around you, just as we did. Let's dive in.
[00:02:20] Sally Clarke: Welcome to We Are Human Leaders, Justin. It is such a pleasure to have you with us today. Thanks And we'd love to get started by getting to know you a little bit better and understand the journey that's brought you to the incredible work that you're doing today.
[00:02:33] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yes. Well, first of all, thank you so much. I feel like I need to create a theme song. We are human leaders. All right.
[00:02:41] Alexis Zahner: We love it.
[00:02:42] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yes. Jingles are not my thing. So yes, I love long walks on the beach and I'm just joking. But I think the thing, the foundational point for me Really how this started, it started from my mom and my mom has been the catalyst for me because I remember growing up and we grew up and we didn't have a lot of money, had a stint of being unhoused or on the kind of welfare of the social government system in the United States and my mom worked her butt off and so she would expose us to things, right?
[00:03:11] Justin Jones-Fosu: Even though we didn't have a lot of money, we went to Oktoberfest and Polish festivals and first people's powwows and all these things and we would go and we actually had exchange students as well. From France and Japan and Germany and Brazil. And I remember my mom would make us go to events, even events that we didn't agree with.
[00:03:28] Justin Jones-Fosu: And I'd be sitting there like, mom, like, why are we even here? We don't agree with. But what she was doing is she was creating this moment and planting these seeds is that they are human beings. On the other side of conversations of principles of ideas and ideology. That are worthy of value and those seeds that were planted have germinated within me.
[00:03:48] Justin Jones-Fosu: And I remember asking my mom, like, really just curious, you know, I interviewed her for my last two books and I was like, mom, like, where did this perspective come from from you? And so my mom shared a very powerful story. She was one of the first black female air traffic controllers in the air force in the United States.
[00:04:04] Justin Jones-Fosu: And she shared that there were sometimes she'd be stationed in Japan for two years. And in that same two year time frame, there were some soldiers who never left base. And she was like, Justin, I'm committed to making sure you and your brother will never be like that, that you'll never stay at your home base and not get to experience the beauty of the people and cultures around you.
[00:04:23] Justin Jones-Fosu: So, that's where really the foundation came from.
[00:04:25] Sally Clarke: Just incredible. I love that, like, not staying on base, leave base, this kind of concept that's obviously influenced a lot of your thinking and your work now and the capacity to hold space for differing opinions and for it not be an immediate reason to leave an event or to not even go to an event.
[00:04:41] Sally Clarke: I love that really powerful influence that she clearly had in it. It really resonates for, I know both Alexis and I, just this curiosity, I think, and that capacity to sort of hold an open mind through those situations, even when it's uncomfortable. So what a beautiful impact that your mom had on you in that way.
[00:04:59] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah, I love her for it because I didn't always lean into it, right? And so just to be honest, there are many times where I started noticing myself confining myself to what I call my circles of comfort, or I was staying at home base. Right, because it sounds good. The seeds are planted. That's why I say sometimes we're just seed planters, right?
[00:05:13] Justin Jones-Fosu: And so those seeds are now germinating in me where I realize like wait a minute My circle consists of people who look like me who think like me who believe like me and all these things And I began to challenge that during COVID and really kind of leaning into this concept. And so I'll give you a strategy behind it, right?
[00:05:29] Justin Jones-Fosu: Because it's great to say that, but let me give you some strategy ways to lean into it, especially for leaders. We started challenging this notion of the open door policy. And so a lot of leaders are like, I have open door policy. And it implies, Hey, if you need me, I'm here. We even have virtual open door office hours.
[00:05:43] Justin Jones-Fosu: I'll be on Microsoft Teams from three to 5 p. m. Right. But we started asking is what if we challenged the open door policy and move to what we call an out the door policy? Okay. Where we left our offices, whether in person or virtually, to hear the stories of our people, to learn about others, to engage in them.
[00:05:58] Justin Jones-Fosu: And, you know, people say, oh, that sounds like too much. Well, let me give you a strategic way to do it. One meaningful connection per week, right? We call it one MC over W. What if we built into our calendar 15 to 20 minutes to have stories? Hear stories of others, ask, what brought you to our community? What brought you to our organization?
[00:06:12] Justin Jones-Fosu: What brought you to our country? Like all these different things. And if that's too much, then flip the W upside down and make it one meaningful connection per month, right? And maybe that's a one hour lunchtime where you're able to engage in such rich conversations and hear the perspectives of others.
[00:06:25] Justin Jones-Fosu: That's one way that we can leave our home base and be able to have an out the door policy rather than open door one.
[00:06:30] Alexis Zahner: Justin, what I think I like most about that is not only in the workplace setting, but if it's in our community or in our homes. Is that it sounds like you're meeting others where they are expecting rather than expecting that if we open the door, people will feel comfortable enough to come to us.
[00:06:47] Alexis Zahner: And I think in the context of the conversation we're going to have around elements of inclusivity, it's showing that we're willing to actually step out of that home base and that comfort zone, which I think many of us think, you know, just by having the door open, you know, people will come to us, but actually it doesn't always feel like we can do that.
[00:07:06] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah. Oh, you're so brilliant. I'm going to tell you why you're brilliant because as you were talking, that's what a story immediately came to mind, right? And it's a real life story for me. So I love trekking. I trek all around the world. And so one trek I did with Machu Picchu and I was in Peru afterwards.
[00:07:20] Justin Jones-Fosu: So of course, after a four day backpacking trek through the mountains in Peru. You want to go to the gym. So I went to the gym. And after I left the gym, I noticed there was this group of young people who are playing music in the circle and they were dancing.
[00:07:34] Alexis Zahner: Yeah.
[00:07:35] Justin Jones-Fosu: And it was just so cool to see. I was like, and I was outside the circle just tapping like, you know how it just goes.
[00:07:40] Justin Jones-Fosu: Your head starts bobbing first and your shoulders and you're like, and I caught myself. Because I wanted to join the circle, but then I started having such self doubt. I started saying, but yeah, we may not speak the same language. I'm from a different country. I look different than they do. What if they don't like my dancing?
[00:07:57] Justin Jones-Fosu: And so all this self doubt creeps in and I'm getting ready to go back to my Airbnb. And this guy, uh, who I later found out his name was Pantera, he left the circle. He was one of the best dancers. He left the circle, came up to me, said, Hey man, where are you from? I was like, you know, United States, you know, Charlotte, North Carolina.
[00:08:12] Justin Jones-Fosu: He was like, what's your name? He was like, I'm like, I'm Justin. He was like, Hey, if you want to join a circle, you can join a circle. And he's like, and if you want to dance, you can dance. Right. Now I tried to play it off. I was like, you know, I'll just wait for the right song. But it was his leaving home base, his circle where he was the best dancer.
[00:08:29] Sally Clarke: Yeah.
[00:08:30] Justin Jones-Fosu: To come. And talk to this unknown guy that made me feel so included and valued that I danced my butt off in a circle. And there's video evidence to prove it. So, to your point, there is that aspect of humanity of leaving our circles to go and experience others.
[00:08:47] Alexis Zahner: Yeah, I love that, Justin. And just a quick rewind though, after a three day trek, I can in no way relate to wanting to go to the gym, but that's fine.
[00:08:55] Alexis Zahner: We'll, we'll, that's cool. You do you. I'm going to the gym after
[00:09:01] Justin Jones-Fosu: this
[00:09:02] Alexis Zahner: podcast. Dancing can relate, going to the gym after a three day trek cannot relate, but that's cool. Now to dive in, Justin, to your latest book, which is really about this idea of respectfully disagreeing and something that is perhaps almost an art form to an extent that we feel is really hard right now in the modern world, you know, with cancel culture and everything else that we see on social media and everywhere.
[00:09:27] Alexis Zahner: It can feel. really tough to express your opinion and not know how to do so in a way, maybe that's respectful or to not be shut down by others. So we'd love to dive into this if we could and kind of bring it back to the basics. Firstly, what does it mean to respectfully disagree? And, you know, as a person or as a leader, what sort of outcomes can we expect when we integrate this form of communication into how we move through the world?
[00:09:55] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yes, and I love what you said. We say it slightly differently, not necessarily the art form, but it's a mindset, right? Respectful disagreement, it's not even an activity, right? It really is a mindset that permeates who we are. And so, what is respectful disagreement? It's when we make the choice to intentionally humanize Others.
[00:10:14] Alexis Zahner: Wow.
[00:10:15] Justin Jones-Fosu: That's respectful disagreement, right? It doesn't mean that I see your perspective, because I may never see your perspective. It sometimes doesn't even mean that we're open minded. Now, we've been challenging this whole concept of, uh, everybody's just like, you just need to be more open minded. We're like, no, no, no, no.
[00:10:28] Justin Jones-Fosu: Because there are things that you all and I are very closed minded on. Yeah. But even when we're closed minded, we should always be open hearted. And that's the difference of respectful disagreement is how, you know, our big statement really that there was a catalyst for writing this book was that we can vehemently disagree with someone's ideology and yet still passionately pursue their humanity.
[00:10:50] Justin Jones-Fosu: And there was always these audible gasps and nods, it's like, Ooh, ah, and people come up afterwards, like, Hey, but how do we do it? Or they would say, or like, but what if they believe this, right? And so this book became the answer to that. And as we dug into the research to address your second point, we realized that there were so many great outcomes from this.
[00:11:08] Justin Jones-Fosu: I'll give you business and I'll give you kind of personal. The business ones was. that there was more innovation, more creativity, that people operate in a sense of greater productivity because they didn't feel like they had to walk on eggshells and they felt like they could have honest and open and vulnerable conversations rather than talking around people.
[00:11:25] Justin Jones-Fosu: All right. And so that was one. The second piece of the business results dealt with just people being able to share freely. So we uncovered another category because I initially just You know, you know how we research things and it's really about us. And I was like, all right, how do I go from disrespectful disagreement to respectful disagreement?
[00:11:42] Justin Jones-Fosu: I was just dealing with the research. I realized there was a whole nother category, all called disrespectful agreement and disrespectful agreement happens on two different fronts. One. Where, you know, I could be having a conversation and I'm like, you know, Sally, I think that was a really good idea in the meeting, but then behind closed doors, I'm saying, Alexis, I don't know what Sally was thinking.
[00:12:03] Justin Jones-Fosu: I think that was a stupid idea. I don't even know why we're going down that path. Right. That's in the moment. I'm agreeing, but I'm disrespecting you behind your back or the other side of that. Or I might have grown up in a society system culture where I was taught that children should be seen. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:12:19] Justin Jones-Fosu: And then I bring that forward to the workplace and to other places, so I just keep the peace. I go along. I don't rock the boat because that's what I was conditioned to do. So even though I'm agreeing with you, sometimes with my silence, I'm disrespecting myself. But not sharing my truth.
[00:12:37] Sally Clarke: Wow. So powerful, Justin.
[00:12:40] Sally Clarke: And I think there's, I mean, there's so much to unpack there, but the word that really, I think resonated for us and for everyone listening is the humanity and intentionally humanizing the other and others, because there is. So many ways in which we are dehumanized in our modern world and so many ways in which that has become almost normalized to not no longer think of human beings as people.
[00:13:01] Sally Clarke: And I think it's such an important mindset as you shared. And certainly, you know, I had a conversation very recently with someone about how I was kind of raised in that way of, you know, children should be seen and not heard and how that then flows through to who we are as adults too. And this disservice that we do ourselves, our others, our community, when we bite our tongue for whatever.
[00:13:20] Sally Clarke: Reason that might be, and I'd love it if you could just perhaps unpack a little further. What are the things that tend to stop us from embracing a mindset of respectfully disagreeing?
[00:13:31] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah, there's a lot of things and everybody's very different, but here are the top things that we've found from people.
[00:13:37] Justin Jones-Fosu: Number one, their past. And it sounds really interesting, but how we've grown up and what we've been taught and what we experienced in our early careers. Like I've had some people we interviewed that they were taught that disagreeing with their leader. was a bad thing. So that they just became yes people, right?
[00:13:53] Justin Jones-Fosu: And then they talked about it behind closed doors, right? And so sometimes unpacking what we've experienced, even the trauma that we have, right? I was physically abused by my older brother who was eight years older than me growing up. And as I unpacked how I engaged, I realized that I was a very harsh, disrespectful disagree or verbally, because I was no longer going to be that little kid who couldn't fend for himself.
[00:14:17] Justin Jones-Fosu: So I was going to get you verbally before you got me and I was about winning the debate, the argument at all costs. And I had to unpack that. So number one, it's that we haven't done the work of our past, right? And that's why even in a book, chapter three, I think it's called a picture of the past where we start asking the questions of how was disagreement modeled for me growing up, or even in my early career, we call it LDMs or life disagreement markers.
[00:14:40] Justin Jones-Fosu: Because that impacts how we show up. So that's number one. Number two, when our organization doesn't have a culture that supports it. And this is why leaders are so integral to this is because I've had to challenge myself. Part of our team is in Ghana and the United States in the Ghanaian tradition, which I'm a dual citizen of it's you give such deference to authority.
[00:15:00] Justin Jones-Fosu: Right, because we have chief system and other things. And so I have to consistently tell my team, I want you to disagree with me. I want you to tell me why I'm wrong. And so one thing that we have leaders can do is crafting culture. And it seems very simple, but it is, but often don't do it is to tell your team that you want disagreement and a disagreement actually helps you get better.
[00:15:18] Justin Jones-Fosu: Number one, number two, to then. Reinforce that by giving them a reward. And I don't mean compensation, but simply a verbal, you know what, Sally, thank you so much for disagreeing with me. It helped me get to another thought that I didn't think about because the team is paying attention to what you're pointing out and what matters.
[00:15:33] Justin Jones-Fosu: And number three, if you adopt it to come back a month later or two months later, if you got to a solution that was different because of that disagreement, because your team is asking the question, what are they reinforcing? What are the things that's being noticed? And so that's the, one of the things, so culture is another thing that stops people.
[00:15:48] Justin Jones-Fosu: And number three is just what's happened in society, right? Is that I don't want to be called. I don't want to be canceled. I don't want to say the wrong thing. I don't want to do the wrong thing. And so we started teaching people that one, you don't always have to tell people that you disagree with them.
[00:16:04] Justin Jones-Fosu: Because there's many times people share things with me and I don't always agree and I just listen. But one outcome or as part of our pillars, pillar five is agree to respect. And in the pillar of agree to respect, it means that I focus on humanizing them and what's my plan to do that. And one way to humanize people is by fully acknowledging that this is one simple thing we can always do, right?
[00:16:23] Justin Jones-Fosu: Sean Zhao, Stanford professor in the United States, she came up with this concept called thank you because. And the thank you because, I can give it to you in three different ways, you know, Alexis, thank you because I've never heard it shared that way before. Or, you know, Alexis, thank you because you mentioned three things, number two really stood out to me that I want to, I probably need to dive in and do a little bit more research.
[00:16:40] Justin Jones-Fosu: Or, wow, Alexis, this is a tough conversation, and I just want to thank you because you didn't have to have it, but I really appreciate you leaning in. Now, not once did I say I agreed with you, but I can always fully acknowledge you, but we don't do that because we often conflate full acknowledgement with full agreement, and they are not the same.
[00:16:58] Justin Jones-Fosu: And so one way that we can practically lean in is by fully realizing that My acknowledgement doesn't mean I agree with them. And that's one of the things that sometimes stops people. It's even by listening. This doesn't mean I'm tacitly approving, but listening is one of the most powerful things that we can do.
[00:17:14] Alexis Zahner: Justin, I think what has just become a light bulb for me in that moment is that in my history of conversation and conflict navigation, I'll say is that if I can't foresee that there's any possible way that myself and another Confined consensus in anything for me, it feels like a wasted conversation that I won't even go down.
[00:17:36] Alexis Zahner: And perhaps when we're in a team or in an organizational setting where we need to have a solution or we need to have an outcome, sometimes this can feel like a zero sum game. And I just wonder, is that something that you see as people for other people being a key reason they might avoid respectful disagreement as well?
[00:17:54] Justin Jones-Fosu: Oh, 100%. It's one of the hundreds of reasons that people avoid it. And part of that is. Because our perception of winning is wrong or even the outcome, right? We always talk about the journey, right? Well, one of the reasons I love international treks, it's not because of getting to the destination. It's what I experienced in the journey.
[00:18:11] Justin Jones-Fosu: And we've realized in our society of life and the world, global society, true innovations come from conflict. True innovations come from friction. They come from like, well, what if we do this differently? Or what if we add this? Or what if we bring calligraphy with user interface? And then we get this beautiful thing we see with Apple and all the things.
[00:18:30] Justin Jones-Fosu: And so there is an opportunity for us. to lean into those conversations and ask what if we learned something new? And that's why our big statement is like, what if instead of winning debates, our new winning was learning? It could be learning about this person, this person's perspective, or even how we operate within that person's perspective.
[00:18:49] Justin Jones-Fosu: And that's the thing that when I go into a conversation of saying, my winning is learning something new, then I'm more willing to engage in conversations that I know are going to be friction filled or have conflict or may go against my ideological beliefs. Because, but I'm going into it with the goal of learning something new.
[00:19:07] Justin Jones-Fosu: So from a business perspective, sometimes just hearing somebody's perspective might bring about a different way. I mean, and with this piece during my MBA, my professor had us read a book. That was phenomenal. Let's transform how I think it's called dialogue, the art of thinking together. And the notion of it was.
[00:19:23] Justin Jones-Fosu: You know, sometimes Sally comes up with A and Alexis comes up with B, and Sally's trying to convince me why A is right, and Alexis is trying to tell me B was right, versus what if we found C? Now, C is often not 50 50, so that's why I don't even like terminology like middle ground. Middle ground implies 50 50.
[00:19:37] Justin Jones-Fosu: What if we found common ground? What if it's 95 5? What if it was 60 35 65? But what if maybe it's just 99 1, and that 1 percent is that they're a human being worthy of value and dignity? That's the new winning.
[00:19:50] Alexis Zahner: And it sounds like Justin, it's almost how can we learn just to co exist knowing that we will never find consensus on ideological things, opinions, cultures, religions, how can we learn just to be at peace living with one another and okay with the fact that we're not going to agree with everything and then that's okay.
[00:20:09] Alexis Zahner: We don't have to try and convince, convert other people.
[00:20:13] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yes. I mean, think about it. I want to ask you all, like one of the biggest conflicts that we studied when we dug into this was could Leonardo DiCaprio have survived in a little plank of wood in Titanic? And you know, there's been such disagreement on what he'd been able to survive.
[00:20:29] Justin Jones-Fosu: Important to consider. There's been research studies on this, by the way, so no, but on a real front, when we go into these conversations saying that, you know what, I can leave everyone feeling fully acknowledged, it creates a different goal, right? And so I've often have conversations that I don't share that I disagree and there's times where it means something to me and then I'll share, but there's a way that we can get there.
[00:20:53] Justin Jones-Fosu: And you may ask that question, but there's a way that we should share that can be more helpful in humanizing others.
[00:20:58] Sally Clarke: Amazing. And I think, you know, one of the feelings that I've been having as you're speaking, Justin, is this sense, and this is a bit of a hippie way of framing it, but it's like when I come into the room and I want to get my way, my energy really stays very close to me.
[00:21:09] Sally Clarke: It's very, sort of, my energy stays very sort of centered around me and my way. And I just got this sense as you were speaking of that energy actually expanding and encompassing the other. And so it's not about necessarily that it's my energy encompassing the other, but it's our energy together as humans.
[00:21:24] Sally Clarke: And I think when we can really step into that energy, that's when really amazing innovations happen and really amazing steps and leaps also in who we are as a species. So I just wanted to share that sort of visceral feeling that came up for me.
[00:21:38] Justin Jones-Fosu: That's dope. I mean, even I want to love that. And, you know, the way I internalizing into my brain is instead of trying to get my way, what if we found our way?
[00:21:48] Justin Jones-Fosu: And so when I go into conversations of what is our way, right? You hear this. Even if the other person doesn't share that same perspective, it's always my choice. And that's one thing that we've been really hammering hard with people is that to respect someone else is always our choice. It's not one of those things that, well, they have to earn my respect.
[00:22:09] Justin Jones-Fosu: We've been challenging that notion, like why? So even we started doing, we've called it 10 characteristics of golden respect, where we started going through and identifying. How kind of globally we've defined respect, but then how we've redefined it and what we call golden respect. Um, and one of those is that respect must be earned.
[00:22:25] Justin Jones-Fosu: And we've been like, but why, why can't respect be like, we finally figured out forgiveness, right? Like forgiveness is not about the other person. It's about me. And so what if respect is the distant cousin of golden of forgiveness is that it's always my choice.
[00:22:38] Sally Clarke: I think that's such an important point, Justin, because I think it's something that we forget all too often that there is a choice there.
[00:22:43] Sally Clarke: And this is one of the powers that we have as humans is this ability to choose. And now I'm sure our listeners, as both of us are really excited to kind of delve into the five pillars. You've already referred to one of them. And I'm sure we could talk for weeks about this, but we're going to try and keep it pretty succinct.
[00:23:01] Sally Clarke: Can you share with us the five pillars of respectful disagreement? And perhaps if you want to zoom in on one that feels really relevant for you right now, just sort of to unpack it for us.
[00:23:11] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah, so the five pillars in a nutshell, and to be very clear, it could be a hundred pillars. But in our research, one, it would have been a really long book, but two, these are the five pillars that rose to the top.
[00:23:21] Justin Jones-Fosu: And so pillar number one is challenge your perspective. And this happens before any disagreement even occurs. And this is what we realized was the missing piece in conflict resolution. Most times, conflict resolution is centered on in the moment of the conflict. Here's what you do. You take a deep breath, you take a pause, but we realized if it's going to be a mindset, you have to constantly exercise these muscles.
[00:23:39] Justin Jones-Fosu: So what are you doing to put yourself in positions to hear perspectives that are different than yours? They hear journeys, right? And one of those waves is the Circles of Grace challenge, where every six to 12 months, I go to events, experiences, or I engage with people, and either which I don't know a lot about and or I disagree with.
[00:23:55] Justin Jones-Fosu: And I go asking two questions. What did I learn about the event experiences and the people? And what did I learn about myself? So that's one really way that you can lean into an intentionally engaging other perspectives. Pillar number two is be the student, where we focus more on listening and learning rather than lecturing.
[00:24:09] Justin Jones-Fosu: When we go into saying the new winning is learning, then our conversations happen very differently. Pillar number three is cultivate your curiosity. And when you cultivate your curiosity, you focus more on filling in the gaps with curiosity rather than conclusions. Right? A similar way, if I were to ask you all and say to you all, Hey, what's the right side of the street to drive on?
[00:24:27] Justin Jones-Fosu: What would you all say? Left.
[00:24:31] Alexis Zahner: Left. Right. Yeah.
[00:24:33] Justin Jones-Fosu: And then right. But the real question is, well, it depends on where you live. So where do you live? Or where have you visited, right? Because in the states, it's the right, right? But in Australia, it's the left, and other places. And so, that, we fill in the gaps with our brains, because our brains are trying to conserve energy for things it thinks it doesn't know.
[00:24:50] Justin Jones-Fosu: And we do the same thing with people. Right before we get to know them, our brains take over. And it says, huh, I need to pull second and third hand information that I got from social media, media, other sources. And now I form my basis on these people or this experience or this moment rather than asking more questions.
[00:25:08] Justin Jones-Fosu: And so cultivating our curiosity is really, really important. Pillar number four, seek the gray. And we all know there's many shades of gray and in seeking the gray, it's asking, instead of something being black and white, it's recognizing that it's far more nuanced, and where is there actual common ground?
[00:25:23] Justin Jones-Fosu: A big debate where that's happening in the states is around gun rights and gun control, right? What does it always do? Gun rights, gun control. What if we, instead of starting a conversation there, what if the conversation started off, you know what? I'm really grateful we both really care about the safety of our families.
[00:25:37] Justin Jones-Fosu: That's a different starting point and common ground place rather than you're wrong, you're stupid, why would you do this? And then pillar number five is agree to respect. And that's, again, our plan to humanize others. And so to dive in slightly deep, give you a practical strategy and cultivate your curiosity is we've been challenging people to go against what we call this double Dutch style of communication.
[00:25:57] Justin Jones-Fosu: And for those who don't know what double Dutch is, It's not just one jump rope, right? It's two jump ropes and somebody waiting to jump in, like, all right, and you're going to jump in. And that's the way we communicate. We're talking with people like, take a breath, take a pause, take a breath. And this is why I disagree with you, right?
[00:26:10] Justin Jones-Fosu: And then we jump in. But what if we listen to what we call the power of three, where you're at least engaged in the third level of that conversation. If you don't know what else to ask, use the power of three words of tell me more. That way, instead of when you say, oh, I went to this really great seafood restaurant, instead of saying, but have you been to this one?
[00:26:26] Justin Jones-Fosu: What if we asked what made it really great for you? But we found people only engage in power of one or power of two because they can't wait to bring it back to themselves. So that's just one really deep way is cultivating your curiosity, pillar three.
[00:26:36] Alexis Zahner: Justin, one of the most sort of hilarious things that came to my mind then when you were speaking is when you ask the question around what side of the road is the right one to drive on is how I have so vehemently argued in the past that the left is the right side.
[00:26:52] Alexis Zahner: But as I had that thought and you were explaining it, I realized that number one, I don't care what side of the road you drive on. Number two, the only reason I feel like that is correct is because you're challenging my conditioning and you're challenging all the perceptions that I have around what I've been taught and what feels comfortable and When you reframed the question around gun control, I realized the question is, what is the best for road safety where I live?
[00:27:20] Alexis Zahner: What is the best for road safety for my children, for my community? And I immediately was able to separate myself. From my opinion and recognize that it's actually not even my opinion, it's simply conditioning. I don't care if the answer's left, right, or upside down, if it's the safest way. And so very interestingly, just in that moment of hearing you speak, I realized probably more than half of the opinions that I feel like I vehemently hold actually aren't even mine.
[00:27:50] Alexis Zahner: They're a product of what I've experienced, the community I'm in. So thank you so much for just a moment of profound like, wow. That is not a hill I'm willing to die on today. I love that. Thank you. Really. I
[00:28:02] Justin Jones-Fosu: love that. Thank you for sharing that.
[00:28:04] Sally Clarke: Yeah. I think it's such a great example also of leaving these opportunities to leave home base, right?
[00:28:09] Sally Clarke: Where so like, it's just the home base perspective. It's like, of course it's this way. Of course it's that way. And sort of through curiosity, through challenging your perspective, being the student, you know, one thing that I struggle with often, and it's, it's A conscious challenge for me is that, that desire when someone expresses something or experience that I had, that desire, that strong desire to share my own experience.
[00:28:29] Sally Clarke: So I went there too, or I did this too, to, to recenter myself in the conversation. And every time I can like bite it and just say, tell me more, or that sounds amazing. Or. What was your experience there? And sort of keep continuing that focus. Always walk away from the conversation feeling more whole, feeling more expansive.
[00:28:49] Sally Clarke: It really is profound.
[00:28:51] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah, I love that you said that because you bring up the really the central point. And we've really been encouraging people, not just leaders, but people, human beings. To adopt this concept, what we call seek to be more interested than interesting. What if we went into conversations where we were just more interested in other people?
[00:29:08] Justin Jones-Fosu: We are interested rather than being interesting, right? That's why I don't like networking events because normally it's like, you know, where do you work? What do you do? Right? Rather than I'm more meaningful questions, right? And so give me a great example of how this happens. I was speaking at a leadership event here in the States.
[00:29:23] Justin Jones-Fosu: And you know, these guys, you know, came up and started going through the normal, Oh, let it out. What do you know? What do you do? And then they asked me, you know, I'm not going to be a jerk and just not, I'm not going to answer that because that's a typical question, right? So I'm like, I gotta do this. But then my question back to them is like, how do I create these spaces?
[00:29:40] Justin Jones-Fosu: This is a great thing leaders can do. We can create these spaces, even with our questions. So I said, Hey, I was like, wow, you all mentioned, cause I listened, you all been in Charlotte for 17 years or for five years. What's something in Charlotte that you have always wanted to do, but never have done yet?
[00:29:54] Justin Jones-Fosu: And they were like, huh? There was no canned response waiting. There was no, you know, Oh, I'll do this. I don't know. And one guy was actually, I've done it all. Right. And that was his initial thought. And then the other guy was like, actually, you know, I've never been to this. And this is actually something very interesting.
[00:30:10] Justin Jones-Fosu: And I was like, yeah, that's something I want to do too. I've never been to the race, you know, the racetrack. And the guy was like, you know what? Actually, I haven't been to the race. And our conversation shifted in such meaningful ways, simply by me asking a question of being more interested. Rather than interesting.
[00:30:26] Justin Jones-Fosu: And so that's one shift I think we can make in our conversations.
[00:30:29] Alexis Zahner: And a really valuable one, Justin. Now, I want to ask you this because I think it's naive for us to think that this is always going to be easy to do, right? Like there are going to be moments where people trigger the heck out of us and they have opinions that we just think are completely crap and we cannot understand or agree with them.
[00:30:47] Alexis Zahner: And You know, I know there are moments where I've heard things where I'm just so confunded by what someone has just presented to me that I really feel like amygdala hijack response where it's anger, it's frustration. What advice would you have for someone in that moment where it genuinely feels like I cannot have this conversation right now?
[00:31:04] Alexis Zahner: How can you deal with that level of kind of conflict to still respectfully disagree?
[00:31:09] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah. So a couple of ways I want to approach it from a mindset perspective and not just an activity from a mindset perspective is That's why the challenge your perspective is so important. It's that's why the more and more you hear perspectives that are outside of what you normally believe, that challenge your long held beliefs, that even challenge your ideological continuum, it helps you to be in those moments and operate in a more effective space.
[00:31:31] Justin Jones-Fosu: So I want to keep saying that that's important. Number two, You will not be perfect and I am not perfect while writing. I respectfully disagree on my writing retreat. I disrespectfully disagreed with someone. So let me be very clear that this is not, and since then I have done it several times. But when you're in that moment and you feel like, you know, all these things, the physiological things that have shaped us is.
[00:31:54] Justin Jones-Fosu: There's a couple of ways to lean in. Number one, and we call this three selves, right? There's a superior self, there's a inferior self, and there's an equal self. And so in psychology, we call it cognitive dissonance and or a term called illeism. So in the moment of disrespectfully disagreeing with someone on my writing retreat, guess what I did?
[00:32:11] Justin Jones-Fosu: Because he said something that was really just triggered me in a really meaningful way. He was throwing away food. I grew up, we didn't have the luxury to throw away food. I ate everything and that still stuck with me. And so I noticed I was triggered in that moment, and I started operating superior self.
[00:32:23] Justin Jones-Fosu: I'm better than him because I don't throw away food. I'm da da da. And so that's often where we go. We either go to the superior or inferior self. And so one way to center more on equal self is by practicing cognitive dissonance. So talking to yourself in third person is research based. It's good. And so in that moment, I said, All right, Justin, what would equal self Justin have done?
[00:32:42] Justin Jones-Fosu: And I started having the conversation. Equal self Justin would have listened. Equal self Justin would apologize. And equal self Justin would have asked more questions. And so in those moments, sometimes it's helpful to operate in that space. You don't have to do it out loud, but to operate in that place of cognitive dissonance or, and or use illeism, which is that third person having that conversation.
[00:33:00] Justin Jones-Fosu: Because what it shows is it creates just enough space of emotional regulation for you to think and operate more in a logical sense. Number three or four last piece of this is boundaries and part of our boundaries is maybe you can't have this conversation right now Right, and maybe it's maybe a long time for you to be able to have it right and but I want to be very careful because Boundaries and barriers look very similar in the beginning Barriers never give people an opportunity to cross the bridge again.
[00:33:29] Justin Jones-Fosu: Boundaries always give an opportunity to cross the bridge. Now sometimes, you know, if somebody's always cussing you out when they're talking to you, your boundary could be, hey, when we're having a conversation, I need you not to yell at me and or cuss me out. If you can't do that, then we can't have the conversation.
[00:33:41] Justin Jones-Fosu: That's a boundary, right? That they get to choose if they lean into or not. That's up to them, but you're stating your space. To create this brave space for you, but a barrier is I will never talk to you ever again. It's immediately cutting off the bridge. And that's one of the things I think we need to be mindful of in our conversations with people is that sometimes we need to create boundaries of the way that we're going to have the conversation.
[00:34:01] Justin Jones-Fosu: I did this recently on Instagram, right? Of somebody, I made a post that, you know, we can vehemently disagree with someone's ideology and still pursue their humanity. And I thought everybody would like it. And people were like, Oh, that's toxic positivity. And there were some people who were really going hard.
[00:34:15] Justin Jones-Fosu: I want to practice what I teach. I was like, okay, why do you think that? Right? Well, what does that mean to you? Why don't you agree with this statement? All the time. And there were some people that were just being very malicious and dehumanizing in their comments in the post. And so I then took it to the next stage.
[00:34:30] Justin Jones-Fosu: Hey, let's take this a direct message because I really want to better understand your perspective. Cause I know the closer you get, the harder it is. To dehumanize others, right? And so, there's some people who didn't want to go, right? And they were like, no. If you have anything you want to say here, or say to me, direct message, say it.
[00:34:46] Justin Jones-Fosu: And so, what I sent to them is, I blocked them from that post. And I sent them a direct message. The bridge. I don't think that our conversation was productive on that form. If you ever want to have a genuine conversation, please reach out and I'd love to engage with you. That's the difference of boundaries and barriers.
[00:35:02] Sally Clarke: It's such an important one, Justin. And it just, it reminds me of a comment made by the coach of my favorite football team recently, which is around. A player that had received a lot of abuse on social media. And he said, you know, we're, we're in the public eye and we're entitled to receive criticism and to receive scrutiny, but abuse, no.
[00:35:20] Sally Clarke: And I think it's that, that line, which we also need, I think that's like continuous work on our own sort of self leadership and like, as you also referred to, like understanding our past. Cause it all. Sort of has this into play when we're in that moment. And there's that amygdala hijackers as Alexis referred to.
[00:35:34] Sally Clarke: So I think it's a really important one. That's, you really triggered my thinking there around understanding and exploring my own idea of when I call it a boundary, but maybe it really is a barrier. So thank you for sharing. Now, a question that just feels like a burning one, I can't end this conversation without asking is to hear from you in your own words, why you feel that respectful disagreement is so important to us as humans right now.
[00:35:58] Justin Jones-Fosu: Oh my gosh, our relationships depend on it. Our society depends on it, future generations depend on it, rudeness has hijacked our global society and it's almost been made okay to be rude and I'm on a mission to challenge that because our relationships matter. I've had people who said in their families that there's people that they've excommunicated because of disagreements and they look back and like, wow, was it worth it?
[00:36:25] Justin Jones-Fosu: And so one is the relationships to. It's how we continue to lead, but three, and I want to hit this part home. What if we're simply seed planters? All right. What if we're seed planters y'all? Because, and then one of the colleagues that I interviewed, well, not interviewed, but I remember, I can't remember the story as he was a former skinhead had very misogynistic, racist views on a lot of different things.
[00:36:45] Justin Jones-Fosu: And as I was curious back in the day of like, Hey, how'd you get in? And how'd you get out? He was like, Justin, oh, we loved when people would call us names. He was like, that fueled us when we were called racist and misogynistic. we loved it. He was like, it was to see the same people who that we demean and disrespected that still chose to show us respect, that were those catalyst moments of seeds that germinated later, that he was like, I just couldn't compute continuing to disrespect others who were respecting me.
[00:37:10] Justin Jones-Fosu: And you may say, Oh, that's great. That's one example, Justin. Well, I'm glad you challenged me. There's this guy, powerful, powerful guy. His name is Daryl Davis, African American blues musician. And he ended up befriending Ku Klux Klan members. Those members of very racist ideology, hateful things in the state, study of burning crosses, all that kind of stuff.
[00:37:30] Justin Jones-Fosu: And in his friendship, over 200 of them turned over their robes because he chose to humanize them even when they likely were not humanizing him. So I plead to you, uh, your listeners and everyone engaging. What if our responsibility is to simply plant the seed? It's not about that one conversation, that one argument, but what if you left them with a seed of respect?
[00:37:52] Justin Jones-Fosu: Even when they didn't give it to you. That's our process. That's our journey to be able to do because we are human leaders.
[00:38:01] Alexis Zahner: Justin, there's rarely a moment where Sally and I are this emotional or this speechless. With anything we've heard on the podcast. We're literally both sitting here in tears for those who can't see us.
[00:38:15] Alexis Zahner: This is, um, yeah, might be one of the most profound messages that we've had on this podcast. So I just want to say thank you. My voice is shaking. And for leaders listening right now, Justin, who can't help but feel connected to you and the importance of this message, can you illuminate for us? Where do you feel is the starting point for us to.
[00:38:38] Alexis Zahner: Embrace respectful disagreement into our lives and into our leadership. Where do we begin this process?
[00:38:44] Justin Jones-Fosu: Begin this process with pillar number one of challenge your perspective. I want to encourage you to do something that's outside of your norm. And you might not start off with the place that you have a high commitment to that ideology, right?
[00:38:58] Justin Jones-Fosu: Maybe it's a low to medium place to exercise the behaviors so that you get used to hearing perspectives difference, right? So maybe a different football team, right? Sally talked about her favorite team, maybe hearing from a different football team. That's a low commitment, hopefully. Right.
[00:39:11] Sally Clarke: I didn't know about that.
[00:39:12] Sally Clarke: Just me. Yeah. I appreciate the example.
[00:39:14] Justin Jones-Fosu: But that's the starting point is challenging our perspective because the more we do that, the more it allows us to hear journeys and perspectives that are different than ours and we get used to it. That way we actually model the behavior, not just for ourselves, but for our teams.
[00:39:29] Justin Jones-Fosu: Often leaders are asking me, right, how do we do this for our organization? My first question back is how are you doing it in your own life? Because that is the starting point of true leadership is that self leadership that you talked about Sally. And one practical way to do that in a workplace, one of my clients, really big footwear company, one of the heads of HR said he joined an employee resource group or collection of group of people that share an identity that had nothing to do with him.
[00:39:54] Justin Jones-Fosu: And he went just to learn, to challenge his perspective, not to lead it, not to do anything, but just to learn. And after two years, he was such a student of learning and support. that they actually asked him to be the executive sponsor for that employee resource group. So my question to us is the starting point is just saying, how do I have more conversations with family members, with people in my community, people in my workplace that are different than mine so that we can do what my mom said and make sure that we leave our home base to get to experience the beauty of people and cultures around us.
[00:40:26] Sally Clarke: Justin, just the most profound conversation and inspiration you've left us with there to challenge our perspectives. To step out into the world right now, as we finished listening to this podcast, to go and to take those steps. And it doesn't have to be the biggest ideological issue that you feel most connected to starting low, maybe a football team and sort of starting to build that experience and testing our skills.
[00:40:48] Sally Clarke: And then expand, expanding from there. It's such a powerful message, Justin. This has been a mind blowing conversation for both Alexis and I, and I'm sure for all of our listeners, we are so grateful that you are here with us today on We Are Human Leaders. Thank you.
[00:41:02] Justin Jones-Fosu: Thank you. And if you don't mind me asking you all a question, for you all, what made it mind blowing?
[00:41:07] Alexis Zahner: I think how deeply my preconceptions are around how to respectfully disagree and how to hold space for conflict, Justin. Because I think when the human in me sees the human in you. Suddenly nothing else seems to matter. And that is for me, the foundational understanding that when we keep coming back to that, I don't really care what your religion is, your culture is because you're a human, I'm human.
[00:41:33] Alexis Zahner: And that's the most common thread we have on this earth.
[00:41:37] Justin Jones-Fosu: Yeah.
[00:41:37] Sally Clarke: And I think for me, very similar as it is energy. I think that For me, it's the sense of when we have this conversation where everything you're sharing just simply feels like a reminder of my own humanity of some deep truth that we layer over with all the other stuff of life.
[00:41:52] Sally Clarke: Coming back to that truth of like coming, it's a profound experience. And we talk a lot about research and that we love our research and our data, but it's these moments I think are really connecting so deeply with our own and each other's humanity that really blew my mind and my heart today.
[00:42:07] Sally Clarke: Transcribed Totally.
[00:42:08] Justin Jones-Fosu: Awesome. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you all sharing.
[00:42:11] Sally Clarke: Can you sing the jingle for us before we go?
[00:42:15] Justin Jones-Fosu: We are human leaders. We are human.
[00:42:22] Alexis Zahner: Thank you, Justin. Love it, Justin. Thanks so much for being with us.
[00:42:28] Justin Jones-Fosu: Absolutely. Thank you all so much.
[00:42:36] Alexis Zahner: Thank you for joining us for this conversation with Justin Jones Fosu on We Are Human Leaders. Has this conversation shifted anything for you personally? As Justin explores with us in this conversation. Respectful disagreement is so much more than a skill set. It's a fundamental choice and mindset to see the world and those around you differently, and one that we feel is foundational for all human leaders.
[00:43:07] Alexis Zahner: The innate capacity to see and value the humanity in everyone you come into contact with. Justin Jones Fosu is the CEO of Work Meaningful. He's an author, a father, and he's a human leader. Justin has changed the way that we see leadership. And we're so grateful that you can be touched by his work through this conversation too.
[00:43:34] Alexis Zahner: To learn more about Justin, visit our show notes page at www. wearehumanleaders. com. And if this conversation has inspired you to transform how you live and how you lead, find out more about human leadership at www. wearehumanleaders. com. Thank you for being with us for this conversation and we'll see you next time.