The 6 Attributes Leaders Must Have in 2025 with Alexis Zahner and Sally Clarke

Sally Clarke and Alexis Zahner - Co-Hosts of We Are Human Leaders podcast

We’re human first, leader second. We all are. The We Are Human Leaders podcast is about bold, heart-felt conversations that are grounded in our shared humanity.

Learn more about Sally and Alexis below.

What will it take to thrive as a leader in 2025? The answer isn’t rooted in authority or credentials—it lies in six transformative qualities that are reshaping the very essence of leadership.

To uncover these qualities, we engaged with 24 of the foremost experts in workplace dynamics—renowned researchers, authors, and thought leaders. From these conversations, a clear picture emerged: six defining traits leaders must embrace to stay ahead.

The old playbook, which favored technical know-how and rank, no longer holds. In today’s unpredictable environment, the idea of leadership has undergone a seismic shift. Skills once dismissed as “soft” are now essential, and these six qualities are the cornerstone for navigating the challenges of the future workplace.

Join us for this conversation where we unpack the six critical skills leaders need to be successful in 2025, and beyond!

Learn more about Sally and Alexis here:

Sally Clarke (she/her)  - Co-Host of We Are Human Leaders, is a former corporate finance lawyer turned burnout and workplace wellbeing expert, speaker and thought leader. She's author of two Amazon bestselling books, including "Protect Your Spark: How to Avoid Burnout and Live Authentically" and writes regularly on Medium and other platforms on leadership, spirituality, and burnout prevention for individuals and organizations.

Alexis Zahner (she/her) - Co-Host of We Are Human Leaders, is a former leader at Patagonia in Canada and is now a Leadership and Workplace Culture Expert, Mindfulness and Meditation Teacher. She’s Authored articles on the Huffington Post, Allied Magazine, and contributed to articles on Forbes. She’s a LinkedIn Top Voice in the field of leadership and careers, and regularly publishes content and articles on leadership, mindfulness, and workplace culture.

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Episode Transcript:

[00:00:00] Alexis Zahner: Welcome to We Are Human Leaders. This is an unusual episode for an array of reasons. Firstly, this is the very first episode that myself, Alexis, and my co host, Sully Clark, have done without a guest. And it's the first where we're actually bringing you a synthesis of our takeaways from the multitude of incredible conversations that we've had the privilege of having in the last year.

[00:00:29] Alexis Zahner: So being us, if you've been listening for a while, you know, that we like some data. So what we've actually done is across the 24 different podcast conversations that we've hosted in 2024, we have actually analyzed the data. Using AI to bring some key themes that have emerged around the most important attributes that leaders need right now and into the future.

[00:00:56] Alexis Zahner: Now, six key attributes really shone through in the data, and we're really excited to explore those with you today.

[00:01:02] Sally Clarke: Yeah. So we're going to unpack those top six attributes that human leaders will really find essential for their leadership and life in general in 2025 and beyond. And we're also going to share a few.

[00:01:14] Sally Clarke: takeaways from these incredible conversations. 24 is a lot of amazing conversations to have had. And we've been really reflecting on what our key takeaways have been as well. In addition to this brilliant set of data that we've derived. Now, the first attribute, drum roll, please, is humility. So this really stood out from the conversations as being essential for human leaders.

[00:01:38] Sally Clarke: Lex, walk us through it. What is humility and why is this such an important attribute for leaders right now?

[00:01:46] Alexis Zahner: Yeah, and I think it's also important to mention that we're beginning at humility as it feels sort of like a foundation for everything else and the other five attributes that we'll talk about today.

[00:01:55] Alexis Zahner: Absolutely. So humility is a leadership quality that is really about sort of being grounded, self-aware and open to learning. It's. The idea that at the core of how we show up as a leader is this sort of trait of collaboration and the capacity to create some psychological safety. So again, being me, I wanted to sort of explore this further and look at a bit of the data around humility and some of the research that's suggesting why this is really critical.

[00:02:26] Alexis Zahner: And. I guess for a few reasons. So we know that by being a humble leader, we appreciate that our work is never done. It's to sort of recognize that our potential is never truly met. And there's always something for us to do to evolve and to grow our approach as a leader and the context we work in. So some earlier research from the university of Washington actually published some 10 years ago in plus in 2013, in the journal of management, Showed that humble leadership actually can increase things like collaboration in workplaces by up to 15%.

[00:03:00] Alexis Zahner: And certainly some of the more contemporary research we know shows that by creating this psychological safety, people actually have the opportunity to show up as their best selves. And really contribute in a creative way, sort of boosting innovation and a plethora of other business outcomes, if you will.

[00:03:16] Alexis Zahner: So some of the brilliant conversations we had this year, a key one that stood out for us was the conversation with Urs Koenig around radical humility. So his brilliant new book came out this year and he gave us this quote, confidence and humility go hand in hand. And if you think about it, I need to have a fundamentally strong sense of self to, for example, invite feedback on my performance as a leader.

[00:03:43] Alexis Zahner: So rather than confidence and humility being a contradiction, it's really complimentary. I need to be confident to actually ask hard questions and show up with humility and then not only hear the feedback, but act on it. So that was one of my favorite quotes that came out of our conversation on humility this year.

[00:04:04] Alexis Zahner: Sal, I just want to hit pause. What are your thoughts on this?

[00:04:07] Sally Clarke: Yeah, it resonates so deeply and particularly that moment, I remember it still from the conversation with Urs around humility and this kind of idea that humility is somehow weakness or, you know, sort of not having the confidence perhaps to be a true leader and the way that he was able to sort of elucidate that actually the two are complementary.

[00:04:28] Sally Clarke: Um, and that there is a level of confidence and sort of strength of self that you need to have to truly be humble, to truly be willing to listen to feedback. And I love how he also highlighted, it's not just listening, it's acting on it.

[00:04:39] Alexis Zahner: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, in a world that is increasingly uncertain, increasingly complex, humility actually allows us as a leader to more effectively navigate this complexity.

[00:04:52] Alexis Zahner: We're able to really leverage diverse expertise and experience when we ourselves as a leader are humble because we know that it's not our job to have all the answers, but to actually lean on others to help us find the answers.

[00:05:05] Sally Clarke: Yeah, and I think it's almost essential because when we think about the opposite of humility, when we're really not humble, when we're just assuming that we know everything.

[00:05:13] Sally Clarke: And we can just picture that impact on a workplace, on an environment, you know, also in our personal lives. It really, I think, sort of highlights how humility is going to be key to navigating that uncertainty. We have to be willing to learn because we simply don't know a lot of what's going on.

[00:05:29] Alexis Zahner: And I love that you mentioned this idea of picturing the opposite of humility, because for me, there are things like arrogance and rugged righteousness.

[00:05:36] Alexis Zahner: And we know there's been so many business examples where people have. Wanted to really die on the hill of their own conviction. And we've seen businesses go under as a result of that. So humility in terms of business strategy is actually about continuity and succession as well, which is critically important in such a complex and volatile environment

[00:05:55] Sally Clarke: right

[00:05:55] Alexis Zahner: now.

[00:05:55] Sally Clarke: Absolutely. And I think also it can feel a little counterintuitive because when things are volatile and complex, we have a tendency to kind of want to control more. Whereas I think humility really enables us to To almost control less and to stay open to the truth of what's really happening rather than sort of just projecting our ideas of the world onto the world.

[00:06:15] Sally Clarke: Absolutely.

[00:06:16] Alexis Zahner: Now, I want to leave humility in a moment here, but before I do, there's two more brilliant quotes that came out of our conversations this year that I just wanted to share. One of them was from Martin Goodman and his fantastic book, The Unseen Leader. And Martin Goodman said to us, Have a healthy balance between being humble and confident.

[00:06:36] Alexis Zahner: Leaders don't see themselves as the only person in the room who has the answer, and they can defer to expert opinions when necessary. Now, I think a little important snippet of context here is that Martin's book really assesses historically, The idea of leadership success. And he compares some of the more notable leaders from history against their lesser known counterparts that arguably achieved more with a lot less friction and chaos and albeit humility as well, which is why in so many of those occasions, we don't know their names.

[00:07:11] Sally Clarke: Yeah. It's such an amazing book. And I think both of us really resonated with this, you know, Martin's incredible storytelling capacity, but also being able to link these sort of unseen leaders with the leadership qualities and attributes that are very much needed today. It's not about being the loudest person in the room.

[00:07:27] Sally Clarke: In fact, often it's about maybe being the quietest.

[00:07:30] Alexis Zahner: Love that. And now before we move on to leave you with a quote here around humility from a recent conversation we had with Justin Jones Fossu. Aim to be more interested than interesting. Now, Sal, I'm going to throw to you here to talk to us about our number two attribute that emerged from the data.

[00:07:49] Alexis Zahner: I personally wasn't surprised about this coming out at all, but without further ado, the drum roll please, Sal, tell us what it is.

[00:07:57] Sally Clarke: So the second attribute that leaders need to lean into for 2025 is self awareness. Self awareness. And while, you know, this is a concept that has been around for a while now, it forms a part of the human leadership framework.

[00:08:10] Sally Clarke: It's really starting to evolve, I think, in terms of what it means for leaders in 2025. So a general definition of self awareness is that we are attuning to and staying aligned with our authentic selves. So it's really understanding who we are at a fundamental level and seeking to ensure that the impact that we have in the world matches what our intentions are.

[00:08:32] Sally Clarke: So this can be showing emotional wisdom and doing the hard work of understanding yourself and your biases, your assumptions, your beliefs, so that you can make better decisions and experience personal growth. In my mind, 2025 and beyond, self awareness is going to mean more than this, like, I'm curious to hear what your thoughts are, but I think it's going to go beyond sort of knowing who we are.

[00:08:55] Sally Clarke: It's actually going to demand a higher rate of presence in the moment for leaders. So this sort of deep sense of self awareness while others are stuck in the past, perhaps, or fretting on the future, through really cultivating a strong sense of self awareness and through that confidence and humility that we just alluded to, 2025's human leader is right there in the moment, deeply aware of self and able to therefore make better decisions, hold more space for perhaps the uncertainty we're experiencing, And draw stronger collaboration.

[00:09:28] Sally Clarke: I think also found better psychological safety through that almost groundedness in the present moment. Love to hear your thoughts.

[00:09:35] Alexis Zahner: Yeah, I love that Sal, and I think as we also see sort of this cross section of generations in the labor force right now, why people work and what they expect out of work has really changed.

[00:09:47] Alexis Zahner: And certainly we're seeing younger generations really want to feel like they're adding surplus value to the organizations they work in by doing meaningful work. And I don't think that leaders can actually create an environment where meaningful work towards a vision bigger than ourselves is possible.

[00:10:05] Alexis Zahner: Without self awareness at the fundamental foundation of how we are as human beings in the workplace, I think there's really this push towards recognizing the individual and creating a more humanistic workplace and self awareness is absolutely foundational to that.

[00:10:22] Sally Clarke: I couldn't agree more. And to that point, Lex, you know, Daniel Goldman in our conversation with him around effective leadership and optimizing every day that we have as leaders is that the research shows that if a leader is low in self awareness, even though it's the least visible aspect of emotional intelligence, they will have trouble developing the strengths in other aspects of emotional intelligence.

[00:10:42] Sally Clarke: So it really is foundational. On the contrary, if leaders are high in self awareness, they'll develop a range of strengths across the whole, and again, this is research based. So in Daniel's words, self awareness really is key, knowing what needs to change, and that can evolve as we evolve as humans too. You know, we all know people in leadership positions who are clueless about what it is they're not good at.

[00:11:05] Sally Clarke: So it's really holding that lens time and time again, knowing that self awareness is not a switch that we flick, it's not a one and done. And as Sarah Langslow mentioned during our conversation with her, self awareness is learning to hold a mirror up to ourselves and doing it without judgment. And I think that's particularly key right now.

[00:11:23] Sally Clarke: We really need to. almost align our self awareness with some self compassion so that this is not a critical exercise of self flagellation. It's one of evolution of kindness of sort of gently continuing that circle up in our evolution.

[00:11:39] Alexis Zahner: Does that land for you? Absolutely. I think this being one of the key attributes we're talking about here is more of an invitation for growth, I think, for leaders.

[00:11:49] Alexis Zahner: It's an opportunity to say there are Things that I could be doing better. There are things I don't know about myself. There are ways I'm impacting others that I might not be cognizant of and taking the opportunity to lean into that, not just to the benefit of your team and because you'll be a more effective leader, but actually fundamentally you'll get more out of life by being better connected to yourself.

[00:12:10] Alexis Zahner: And self awareness is again, the foundation of that. So, I mean, it's a win win really.

[00:12:15] Sally Clarke: And I love that you frame it as that invitation as well. It's not this kind of. obligation that we take on as a leader. Now I also have to become self aware. It really is something that has such multifaceted benefits for us and the people around us.

[00:12:27] Sally Clarke: Yeah. And just to sort of round it up, I think our conversation with Lodro Rinsler around the benefits of meditation for human leaders was also one that sort of reminded me of how, if we are looking to cultivate deeper self awareness, this can be a really important fast track. And it just gave me that extra.

[00:12:44] Sally Clarke: Push and reminder that, you know, your meditation can be shorter than your morning shower for it still to have impact. And so just bringing ourselves back to that daily habit that we can build in as one of the components in terms of building self awareness for leaders. Now, I'm really excited for number three on our list, Lex.

[00:13:02] Sally Clarke: It is, it's pretty stellar. It is adaptability and context fluency. Wow. Yeah. Thanks AI for pulling that one out. It's super amped to hear. Your take, what do these terms mean, Lex, and what impact do you think they'll have for us in 2025?

[00:13:17] Alexis Zahner: Yeah, interestingly, Sal, I think the third skill obviously that emerged for us, adaptability and context fluency.

[00:13:24] Alexis Zahner: The fact that the two skills even before this, humility and self awareness, for me, they're less technical skills and they really speak to the modern leader, the leader who's 2025, has this set Of perspective and interpersonal skills that can be transient in their application, if that makes sense. So it doesn't matter what context you face, you need to be able to adapt to it.

[00:13:48] Alexis Zahner: And I think that's what their meta skills in a way is for me. What kind of emerged as the overarching trend of everything we looked at. So to put a bit of language around by what exactly we mean by adaptability and context fluency in leadership. This refers to a leader's ability to understand, adapt, and respond effectively to different circumstances, environments, or challenges.

[00:14:12] Alexis Zahner: So it's a skill of reading a situation, recognizing the nuances and making decisions that align with a specific context, rather than trying to have one size fits all models for everything. Um, So it's really a competency that's so critical in this fast changing and sort of complex environment we operate because it calls for us to stay away from rigidity and patterns of thinking and almost approach every situation anew.

[00:14:40] Alexis Zahner: We can rely on some of that historical data of what's gone well, what's worked in the past, but we really need to look at different situations as they emerge and be willing to adjust our perspective. To sort of keep up with where things are going. So I'm interested to hear your thoughts. So what, what's your take on this as a key attribute?

[00:14:57] Sally Clarke: Yeah, I think for me, and it's, I'm loving Lex, how, as we're even having this conversation, it's becoming extra clear to me how interconnected these attributes are, including that sense of, as you alluded to self awareness and humility in order to be able to have the sort of strength of self and conviction to be adaptable, to be context fluent, and a lot of the conversations that we had.

[00:15:20] Sally Clarke: This year also reminded me of how sometimes it's really just tapping into the experiences that we've had, knowing that, you know, we've been through different situations and we've come out the other side and being understanding that we, in almost every single situation we're in, whether it's as a leader or sort of generally in our lives, we come out the other side with learning.

[00:15:39] Sally Clarke: So trusting that situation and being able to navigate from a place of a growth mindset, openness to changing contexts. And being able to sort of lead with that vision is going to be so important. And you've beautifully also sort of shared with us, I think, what the contrast of that is, which is just getting bogged down in patterns, in habits.

[00:16:01] Sally Clarke: And I think that's going to really derail teams and workplaces only in an increasing way in the future.

[00:16:07] Alexis Zahner: Yeah. And to add to that, cause I think you've really sort of brilliantly there spoken about some of the personal characteristics that I think make up for a leader who is a leader. Is adaptable and has a high level of contextual fluency, but there's some real situational awareness components here that I think leaders need to understand and be willing to move with as well.

[00:16:27] Alexis Zahner: And some of these include things like the environmental conditions, their businesses operating in the organizational culture they're operating in, but also some of the market conditions and the regulatory requirements that are so rapidly changing, especially obviously with technology right now. You know, there is a sort of continual evolution at an increasingly rapid rate of the global environment we're operating in.

[00:16:51] Alexis Zahner: So I think leaders who have a really high level of contextual fluency have both this internal compass where they're able to sort of. Recalibrate continually to meet some of those external signals coming in from the market and from the global context they're operating in to add a layer to that as well.

[00:17:09] Alexis Zahner: I think there's a very potent piece around cultural sensitivity on this. And again, in an increasingly globalized world, being conscious of that cultural sensitivity is another key data point. I think in that contextual fluency, it's like. Being able to pull the data from all of these different things that affect how we operate as a leader and as a business and using those to make better informed decisions.

[00:17:31] Alexis Zahner: So one conversation again that stood out for me here speaking about this and what was interesting is that it was a perspective really rooted in historical. Data. And again, from our conversation with Martin Goodman, and he was explaining to us the concept of environmental intelligence, and he was suggesting that historically, some of the leaders that have performed the best actually had a really deep understanding of the factors that influence success, and they were able to recognize and adapt their methods.

[00:18:01] Alexis Zahner: So one example he used, which was probably my favorite story from the book was around polar explorers and some of the early polar exploration around the world. And he was really contrasting those who just bulldozed through challenges, sort of without regard for local conditions or feeling like they were above local intel versus those who actually adapted to their unique environment and worked with it rather than sort of against it.

[00:18:27] Alexis Zahner: So they were able to sort of learn and adapt based on what they were seeing versus sort of sticking to, well, this is the approach we chose. And therefore. We're just going to bulldoze through this iceberg and hope for the best. What's your take on that?

[00:18:42] Sally Clarke: Yeah, I think it's so important for leaders to be able to, particularly I'm thinking of leaders who are entering, for example, a new team or a new organization.

[00:18:49] Sally Clarke: And I think this is so practically applicable for these leaders in coming into an organization. You've got your experience and your expertise, you've been brought in for a reason, but understanding inherently you're in a new environment. And taking the time to understand what's going on, listening to the locals, talking about, you know, it's sort of, and really listening.

[00:19:08] Sally Clarke: I think that's the key word there. And, you know, we talked about this in a number of conversations of listening is not just what the words that are said, but the other data and indicators that we have is going to be really key for leaders. You know, I think that's so brilliantly set out in Martin's book and particularly in that example.

[00:19:24] Alexis Zahner: Yeah, absolutely. And one further conversation we had around this was with Rebecca Homkes, who, you know, is a business strategy expert. And one of the quotes that she gave us was that you have to get comfortable with making decisions based on beliefs and not always waiting for perfect facts. I need to acknowledge the variables are still emerging, be open to change, shift from planning to preparing and get comfortable with being uncomfortable in some of these stages.

[00:19:52] Alexis Zahner: And for me, it was just such a summary of. This marriage between having enough information and enough data. And so often I think we can get really stuck in this paralysis by analysis stage and never actually taking any action, but also having the right level of. intuitive data, emotional data, signals from the environment that we're heading in the right direction and kind of pulling the trigger and iterating as we move.

[00:20:17] Alexis Zahner: I love

[00:20:18] Sally Clarke: what you just said, like, because I think that is so key. And I have this visceral response because I can think of all the times, you know, the research loving lawyer brain in me that goes, just need a little bit more information and then I'll make a decision. And it's just get completely undermined my own position there, but it really is about that.

[00:20:34] Sally Clarke: Intuitive awareness of when you have enough information, when it's time to perhaps start experimenting, having more conversations, and actually translating that information into experience. And I think that's such a great takeaway from Rebecca.

[00:20:48] Alexis Zahner: Absolutely. And contrary to that, Sallum, why you and I work so well together.

[00:20:51] Alexis Zahner: Is that I'm a very pie in the sky thinker and I get quite excited about ideas and we'll start running down rabbit holes with not enough information and so it's again having the humility to say maybe I need some contradictory voices around me, some people that can bring a different lens to the challenge we think.

[00:21:08] Alexis Zahner: We're trying to solve for so that there needs to be a level of friction in place so that the right balance between context fluency across the board, not just how we're feeling, not just how we're thinking, but what is the market signals? What is the contextual data here? We need to involve in the decision making process is

[00:21:24] Sally Clarke: there as well.

[00:21:26] Sally Clarke: Amazing. And that takes me back to our conversation at the start of this year with Huggy Rau around the right kind of friction and the wrong kind of friction. And we, as we know from that conversation, we often think of friction in a negative connotation when we're thinking about the workplace. But sometimes we do need to sort of slow down and maybe have things sort of, bottleneck a little bit so that we can be coming to the right decisions, but without that unnecessary or wrong kind of friction as well.

[00:21:49] Sally Clarke: So yeah, yeah, absolutely agreed.

[00:21:52] Alexis Zahner: Love it. And now Sal, please introduce us to our fourth attribute that emerged from the data this year.

[00:21:59] Sally Clarke: So number four is vulnerability, which is, it's a real favorite of mine. It feels like it's been a theme through my life and my leadership. And I think it has so many different meanings and a a bad rap.

[00:22:14] Sally Clarke: Now, I think for a lot of leaders, particularly who are coming from perhaps a more sort of old school mindset, it's like, well, I shouldn't have to be vulnerable as a leader. I need to be really strong. People need to look to me and just see strength. I believe vulnerability is strength. So in essence, vulnerability means to show your true self.

[00:22:31] Sally Clarke: And the word comes from the Latin for wound. So it means to really show to others, Places that could make you susceptible to their attack. So it is that sort of exactly what we understand it to be. Vulnerability. When we are vulnerable as leaders, we create healthy and safe environments that really foster trust, which is going to be, there's so much research showing how important trust is gonna be in workplaces in 2025 and beyond, perhaps more important than ever.

[00:22:58] Sally Clarke: And so in practice, vulnerability really helps us get there. It means being able to authentically express emotions, admit mistakes, seek help, share insecurities, show empathy and create a safe environment for others. And to me, that just all means being human first, leader second. It really is about being able to show.

[00:23:19] Sally Clarke: That strength and that confidence that we alluded to earlier as well to show up as a human and as well as a leader. I'd love to hear your thoughts, Lex.

[00:23:28] Alexis Zahner: I think vulnerability for me is an interesting one because I feel like this has become one of the skills that's almost been weaponized in the leadership development space in the last few years.

[00:23:38] Alexis Zahner: It feels like it's become a buzzword and in a lot of ways, I think. Isn't being used effectively. But for me, here's the hot take. Vulnerability not only will improve your relationship with your team, and it will not only then model to them a level of fallibility that then can be reflected back in psychological safety and trust and all those beautiful things that you've mentioned, Sally, and that are needed for teams that are innovative and creative.

[00:24:02] Alexis Zahner: But I will just argue here. Fundamentally, as a human being, the capacity to be vulnerable with oneself and therefore with other people will just inherently increase the value of your life. It'll increase your experience of life. It'll increase the quality of your relationships with other people. So my argument is even beyond, yes, this is a brilliant leadership trait and it has brilliant outcomes in the workplace.

[00:24:28] Alexis Zahner: But you're just going to live a better life when you feel more deeply connected to yourself and therefore have a deeper capacity to connect to others. And I think that's motivation enough.

[00:24:37] Sally Clarke: I totally agree Lex. And I think, you know, a lot of the people that we work with, leaders in really important roles in the business space, and they are seen as strong and very fiercely independent and they see themselves in that way too.

[00:24:49] Sally Clarke: And there can be a little bit of uncertainty and sort of discomfort around the concept of vulnerability as if it's a 180 pivot. And I think understanding exactly as you've alluded to that it is not a pivot. It's actually a broadening and a deeper humanizing of yourself in the workplace that will have powerful ripple effect, not just in the sense of, you know, psychological safety and all these wonderful outcomes, but in your own sense, honestly, of self acceptance, you will be a happier person.

[00:25:16] Sally Clarke: Yeah.

[00:25:17] Alexis Zahner: Yeah. It's expensive. It's expensive. And. As a result, as we've mentioned, there are some fantastic business outcomes, but is expensive on an individual level. And I think it increases the quality in which we experience life. And I just think we have to be for most of us at our jobs for X amount of hours.

[00:25:36] Alexis Zahner: Every day, every week we're in workplaces away from our family, away from our hobbies. Let's make them somewhere where we want to be and where they actually contribute to the meaningfulness and our experience of life, rather than detract from that. And vulnerability is just one way that we can do that.

[00:25:53] Alexis Zahner: And I'll leave you with this. And that is, I think. I would love for people to view vulnerability less as a skill to build and more of a way of being. It's something that we need to practice bringing through in how we show up every day.

[00:26:06] Sally Clarke: And I think to build on that one really easy, simple way that we can build vulnerability into our leadership right now, starting now is to offer a little bit more context around things.

[00:26:16] Sally Clarke: I find it often, particularly in remote environments, you know, we can misinterpret information from other people or just get a statement and we have no context for it. But it's when leaders offer perhaps a little bit more context, like my kid is sick and that's why I'm late. Or this is going on for me as well.

[00:26:31] Sally Clarke: And it's like, Oh, that extra dimension of humanity that you've just offered me helps me to feel more human too. It really is an expansive experience. So

[00:26:40] Alexis Zahner: I love that so much. And we said that we were going to wrap this part of the conversation in 30 minutes and we've already failed. So we might as well keep rolling.

[00:26:48] Alexis Zahner: But one thing I wanted to add to that Sal, because I love that comment so much is that The brain's designed to create meaning and create narrative. And so when I say to you, Hey, so I'm late, you're perhaps going to start thinking, well, she doesn't really value my time it's because she doesn't care about this project, et cetera, et cetera, whatever it might be.

[00:27:05] Alexis Zahner: But we have a bias towards negativity and our brain is a brilliant meaning making machine. So what vulnerability does is also help people fill in the gaps. And as you say, It helps people connect to you more because there's just that little bit more context. And so twice in the last month alone, I've made really poor judgments of another person based on lack of information and a decision or a change of plans that I didn't like.

[00:27:29] Alexis Zahner: I was irritated by, and because of that emotional response, I noticed myself saying, well, this person is X, Y, Z. And then only to feel extremely guilty and frankly, shameful later when I actually found out more of the context. So I love that example so much because I think

[00:27:45] Sally Clarke: it's so important. Amazing. I think, yeah, it empowers us to hit pause perhaps a bit more often rather than erasing into projecting meaning onto the information that we're given.

[00:27:54] Sally Clarke: And I mean, there's so many examples from this year of conversations that touched on vulnerability. I think for me, the one that stood out particularly was the one we had with Bri Fram and Liz Cavallaro about how LGBTQ plus leaders can create incredible impact through their adverse experiences. It really touched me.

[00:28:10] Sally Clarke: And particularly Bree's experience as a trans woman coming out in the military, sharing how her own vulnerability was an opening to create that exact space that you've alluded to for others on her team. And she shares that, you know, through my transition, I revealed some of my humanity, some vulnerability that I was going through challenges myself.

[00:28:31] Sally Clarke: And in doing so, all of a sudden, my folks wanted to come talk to me. They wanted to bring me their challenges and it was amazing because we could work through things we never would have been able to do together before and as leaders, we really need to reframe anything that makes us look vulnerable from a weakness to a strength because Everyone has those types of vulnerabilities and I think that's just such a powerful, you know, framing of the situation and sort of really inspired me to sort of think differently about vulnerability and in its absolute power to create these connections.

[00:29:03] Sally Clarke: And it's finally a practical insight from Jacob Morgan. He suggested leading with vulnerability is about Demonstrating fallibility, but also showing a willingness to overcome the challenges. So he gave the example of, for example, you know, a leader who's come into a new space and is talking to their team for the first time, rather than just saying, I know everything, I'm going to be an amazing leader.

[00:29:24] Sally Clarke: Sharing that perhaps there's some things that you're working on, perhaps you're seeing a coach, you're reading some books, you're continuing your own evolution as a leader. Not coming in saying that you're going to know all the answers, but saying that you're willing to find them. And I think that was a really key takeaway from that conversation for me.

[00:29:41] Sally Clarke: Now, I reckon we could probably talk about vulnerability all day. In the interest of time, like, let's rock on to number five with a bullet. What was it?

[00:29:51] Alexis Zahner: So our fifth attribute that emerged was actually empathy and compassion. And the reason we structured this conversation in this particular flow is because I feel like empathy and compassion is, it's something that we can't demonstrate if you'll use that word.

[00:30:06] Alexis Zahner: I think without some of the key things that we've already discussed without a level of self awareness, without humility, without vulnerability, I don't think that we can actually offer others empathy and compassion. So specifically, they're really fundamental vehicles to better understand and connect to those around us.

[00:30:23] Alexis Zahner: And I believe this is true both on a personal and professional level. So in terms of leadership specifically, when we are empathic, when we are compassionate, we're able to really create a totally different work environment for our team. We create an environment where psychological safety is possible, where vulnerability is welcomed, you know, and we're showing up as your full self is actually possible, which is fundamental to that thing you mentioned earlier.

[00:30:49] Alexis Zahner: So the big T word trust. So if you're someone who loves data, as I am, I wanted to sort of understand like how empathy and compassion actually can impact some of the outcomes that we're responsible for as leaders in organizations. So there is an interesting study published by Catalyst a few years back now by a researcher named Tara van Bommel.

[00:31:09] Alexis Zahner: And she. surveyed around 900 us employees across different industries. And they actually found that employees with more empathic leaders were 76 percent more engaged in their work and 61 percent more innovative than those with less empathic leaders. So. I mean, that's some of the business case around that.

[00:31:32] Alexis Zahner: And I think in terms of, yeah, it's pretty compelling. I think in terms of business outcomes, you know, we can expect everything from inspiring the best workout of people through to things like when we inevitably do face challenges and downswings in the market or whatever it may be in business environments.

[00:31:49] Alexis Zahner: I think when people feel like we've got their back, when people feel like we understand them and there is a genuine level of care for them, they are more inclined to dig deep because we've built those solid relationships. You know, they're relationships built on loyalty and mutual support. So I just think they're more enduring and more resilient when empathy and compassion is something fundamental to them.

[00:32:09] Alexis Zahner: What are your thoughts, Sel?

[00:32:11] Sally Clarke: Yeah, look, just I think very briefly, like again, it's this idea of this kind of multifaceted impact that we Can talk about the business outcomes and also allude to the personal impact of being empathetic and showing compassion. For me, it feels like leadership is really shifting from almost like a two axis measurement of input and outcome to multi dimensions.

[00:32:32] Sally Clarke: We have to really think about Not just these behaviors as skills or traits, but really is something that we're weaving into our Humanity into who we are as a human and a leader and thinking of them Of course, you know in these overwhelming statistics Like there's so much data at this point to show how important these things are to workplace outcomes but to also understand that it's actually essential for us as individuals as teams as a Society really to step into these skills and attributes and really take them on You So that it's not just something that we're practicing, but it's something that actually becomes a part of who we are, of our own self leadership, if you will.

[00:33:09] Sally Clarke: I

[00:33:09] Alexis Zahner: really appreciate that opinion, Sal. And I think to put some sort of clear language around what exactly we're talking about when we say empathy and compassion, we've obviously just spoken about vulnerability, which is the idea that We need to model our own fallibility and create the space for others to do the same.

[00:33:24] Alexis Zahner: Empathy is really about opening ourselves to understand the perspective and the struggles of others. So it is in a way calling for us to kind of step outside of our own shoes and get the perspective of those around us. What is their day like? What's impacting them? What challenges are they facing? And I think as a leader there to serve other people, we actually can't serve others well without that perspective and The build on that with compassion is then actually taking accountability for doing something about it.

[00:33:55] Alexis Zahner: So I wanted to sort of highlight here some key skills that I think are important for leaders who want to be more empathic and compassionate. And some of the key skills that I think are really important here as a leader is number one, Is being a better listener than we are talker. And it might feel contrary to what we think is expected of leaders, you know, to give direction, to have the grand plan, but in fact, leaning into learning from those around us, especially some of the other elements that might be impacting how they work.

[00:34:27] Alexis Zahner: So some of the personal elements can actually help us better understand how to support and empower our employees to do a better job. So showing genuine interest in care in your employees is critical here. So to that point, showing genuine care for your team's wellbeing actually demonstrates to them that they matter.

[00:34:45] Alexis Zahner: And I think this is absolutely fundamental in empathy and compassion. And before I go on to the other two skills that I've got here, Stella, I want to throw to you on this one. What are your thoughts?

[00:34:55] Sally Clarke: Yeah, I think it's really key and we've had so many of our conversations, I think, have come back to this concept of really empathy and compassion not being sort of an end game.

[00:35:06] Sally Clarke: But when you do almost everything that you need to do as a leader with empathy and compassion, it involves a level of courage, it involves a level of curiosity, involves a level of vulnerability. These are all very enmeshed, but I think it has to be that starting point that also that you alluded to, a really seeking other perspectives and trying to broaden our own perspectives so that we can create, you know, for example, a more inclusive environment as well, which again is going to be huge in 2025 and beyond.

[00:35:33] Alexis Zahner: Yeah. I love that. So, and I guess the further build that I have here then on those skills is that Really empathy in motion, which is this compassion element is about acting on what you're learning from people. So all of us would know having been employees probably at one point in our careers that there's nothing worse than being asked for feedback that drives no tangible change.

[00:35:53] Alexis Zahner: So if you see an employee or have an employee that's struggling to cope, maybe it's personal difficulties, impacting their capacity to work and doing their best job. Make sure that as a leader, if you are willing to have these conversations, lean in with empathy to get this perspective. That you actually have a concrete plan to do something about it.

[00:36:12] Alexis Zahner: Because asking the right questions is only stage one of the journey. I think you can feel a little, just a little strung out as an employee when you've had those hard conversations and you feel like nothing's come as a result of it. So I think it's important that leaders are able to act on that as well.

[00:36:25] Alexis Zahner: Yeah, and then I guess the interesting thing circling back on this, I think that vulnerability piece is so fundamental here. So as leaders, I think the quickest way to get other people to open up to us is to open up ourselves. And I think as Jodi Wellman told us in one of the conversations that we had this year as well, that empathy is a leader's greatest tool.

[00:36:43] Alexis Zahner: She really said that it's, it's fundamental to building that emotional trust with people. And then as we've mentioned, some of the outcomes we can expect from that higher collaboration, better morale, all of these lovely things that we know are part of leaders KPIs. So actually another brilliant opinion that came out of our conversations this year as well.

[00:37:02] Alexis Zahner: It was from Todd Cashton and his brilliant book, the art of insubordination. Is really about how we can promote effective dissension in our organization. So he really views empathy as a key to understand where others are coming from, which really helps them find common ground and build better connection.

[00:37:20] Alexis Zahner: It creates those environments. Where effective dissension is really, really important. And that is having people who are willing to step in and have hard opinions and perhaps contradict the status quo in an organization, which is really, really critical. Do you have any thoughts on that one, Sal?

[00:37:38] Sally Clarke: Yeah, I think, you know, honestly, it's just reminding me how many of our conversations have been with people who you could.

[00:37:44] Sally Clarke: Almost characterized as almost troublemakers or, you know, yeah, stirring up some dissension, looking to disagree, looking to create a, you know, hold space for different perspectives. And I think empathy is so key again, not just to us in our workplaces, but in our communities in terms of finding a way forward that is more leaning into what we have in common rather than our differences.

[00:38:07] Sally Clarke: So yeah, really powerful insight from Todd.

[00:38:10] Alexis Zahner: Love that. Now, Sal, we are up to attribute number six, which is our last but not least. It's around growth mindset and coachability. So can you firstly, Sal, start us off? What exactly is coachability and how might this go hand in hand with the growth mindset? Why do we think this is a critical skill right now?

[00:38:29] Alexis Zahner: Again,

[00:38:30] Sally Clarke: like I just love how all of these attributes are so interwoven. There is not one that you're just going to practice this one and not be also working on the others. It's kind of all or nothing. So we spoke to a number of different amazing experts around this notion of evolution and coachability and becoming coachable really means a deep and visceral, almost radical willingness to evolve.

[00:38:52] Sally Clarke: So it's kind of tied into the evolution component of radical responsibility in the human leadership framework. so much. And in practice, this really means being courageously open to feedback and learning and actively seeking to improve your skills and behaviors accordingly. And for me, it's an invitation.

[00:39:10] Sally Clarke: I think you used that word earlier and I really love it as well because I think it's an invitation for leaders to, rather than simply sitting with the status quo, doing what we've always been doing and expecting different results. If we want things to be different, we really have to ourselves also have the courage to be ready to change, ready to adapt.

[00:39:27] Sally Clarke: As we alluded to earlier too. Before I dive into a couple of our key quotes, your thoughts, growth mindset, coachability, what's your vibe?

[00:39:36] Alexis Zahner: I really liked this, the coachability element specifically. I think growth mindset is something, it's a term that's been thrown around now for a long time. I think fundamentally people have an idea of what this means, but I think coachability is a skill that makes it a little more tangible.

[00:39:53] Alexis Zahner: It gives us something that we can work on. And as someone who spent a lot of time playing competitive sports, I think being coachable as a human being in general, Is actually us opening ourselves to seizing the opportunity of the perspectives that we can't see on ourselves. So, you know, as someone who's played football, soccer for those in Australia, the U S my whole life, you're on a pitch and you think you're doing the best possible job you can.

[00:40:20] Alexis Zahner: Your opinion is subjective. So having people outside of you being able to observe you, watch what you're doing, perhaps seeing the reactions and responses from those around you that you're not able to gauge in the moment. It's just another layer of feedback that we can take on board and iterate with. So for me, the coachability piece is really, really key because I think it takes growth mindset a step further and is a very active practice of getting perhaps mentors or coaches or other people within the organization to help us observe the things we can't see about ourselves and start doing them better.

[00:40:55] Alexis Zahner: So for me, it really stood out. I love it. And I hope it's one that all leaders take very seriously in 2025 and beyond.

[00:41:02] Sally Clarke: Amazing, Lex. And to build on that, there's a couple of specific quotes that we have from, uh, the conversations that we had that really explicitly, I think, highlight that the very active nature of being and becoming coachable.

[00:41:14] Sally Clarke: And as Jacqueline Lane shared with us, you know, don't wait for growth opportunities to come to you, seek them out and embrace the journey. So taking those small steps every day to open yourself up to feedback and learning, like you said. Really incorporating what you've heard and felt and seen into your behavior.

[00:41:32] Sally Clarke: And our conversation with Justin Jones Fosu, who shared so beautifully, you know, we had this idea of the open door policy. Everyone's welcome. What if we walk out through that open door? We leave home base, as he also shared. And we really start to open ourselves up to the experiences of others and Gaining other perspectives and I think asking for feedback in ways that we might not expect, you know, I think there's a lot of sort of almost archaic ideas about what feedback looks like.

[00:41:57] Sally Clarke: We wait for our performance review or we, you know, so these sort of very formal moments in the workplace. Those days are gone and feedback can come at any time. In some fairly unexpected ways. So I think leaders need to really almost think very differently about what that entails for themselves, but also for their team members.

[00:42:15] Alexis Zahner: Absolutely. And these six key attributes, as you mentioned earlier, so whilst different, I think they're also interrelated. And I think as we begin to work on one, it kind of becomes a Pandora's box where we will naturally notice. And I think begin to increase our capacity to work on the others. So. They were the six key attributes again, that emerged from our 24 conversations with global leaders, researchers, authors, and experts from all over the world in the 2024.

[00:42:42] Alexis Zahner: We are Human Leaders podcast season, and this leads us in to the final part of our conversation today, Sal, and that is our rapid fire leadership questions. So. Sally Clark, I have prepared for you five questions that I'm going to ask you and I'd love for you to give me your rapid fire response. Are you ready to rumble?

[00:43:06] Alexis Zahner: Buckled up, let's do this. Buckled up, sat down, ready to roll. Alright, question one. One word to sum up the 2024 season. Insight. Ooh. Which key attribute will you focus on developing in 2025?

[00:43:23] Sally Clarke: Surrender. Sorry, that's not one that we referred to, but it's. Ooh. Yeah. There's been. It's yours. I think it kind of, for me, ties together a few that we've talked about because it really is that ability to kind of let go of control.

[00:43:35] Sally Clarke: That's what I'm meaning with that one. So surrender.

[00:43:39] Alexis Zahner: I love that. One place you want to visit in 2025, and why?

[00:43:43] Sally Clarke: Look, I've been traveling so much and I've just relocated to the beautiful Torquay area in Victoria, Australia. I just want to stay at home for a little bit. It's my place.

[00:43:54] Alexis Zahner: Love that. Recommend one song you loved this year, and I'm almost going to say I know what's coming.

[00:44:00] Alexis Zahner: It is not Tay. Oh, Spicy Tay.

[00:44:04] Sally Clarke: So one of my favourite artists who I actually saw live last week, Fink, released a new album this year, and one last gift from the new album is just, I have had that on repeat for weeks, does not get old.

[00:44:15] Alexis Zahner: Love it. And your dream guest for 2025.

[00:44:18] Sally Clarke: Yeah, this is a controversial take, but I am a huge Tottenham Hotspurs fan, that's a Premier League football team in London, and I really want to speak to Anj Pasterkoglu, so if anyone from Spurs is listening, I know you are, hook us up.

[00:44:30] Alexis Zahner: Love that.

[00:44:32] Sally Clarke: Love that. I've got, I've actually got six questions for you. I couldn't pick which one to throw out. So there's six. Are you ready for the rapid fire? Yes. Okay. One key attribute you'll be focusing on in 2025. Audacity. That's my girl. What are you most grateful to leave behind in 2024?

[00:44:53] Alexis Zahner: Scarcity of time specifically.

[00:44:57] Alexis Zahner: I am going to Plug up my energy leaks from 2024, get clarity, conviction and focus in 2025 more so than ever. And you have a cheer

[00:45:07] Sally Clarke: squad right here supporting you. Love that for me. One place you want to visit in 2025 and why?

[00:45:14] Alexis Zahner: Perhaps somewhere I haven't been before. Hoping to spend a bit of time in the Middle East.

[00:45:19] Alexis Zahner: I've got family

[00:45:20] Sally Clarke: in Dubai area. Amazing, cool. And which word defines your intention for your leadership next year?

[00:45:27] Alexis Zahner: I think adaptability, actually, I think it's one of our key attributes. I think continuing to lean into your words here, surrender the control a little bit and move with the signals I'm getting rather than stay rigid in what I think I need to do.

[00:45:41] Sally Clarke: Love that adaptability. I think we can all use, darling, that one up a bit more. The TV show that changed your life in 2024. Go, and surprise me, legs.

[00:45:51] Alexis Zahner: Oh, I don't know what I would want to know what your take is here. I'm going to actually throw it out there and say Territory kudos to the Australian legends who absolutely created a ripper of a show on Netflix.

[00:46:01] Alexis Zahner: If you haven't already seen Territory, love it. As a regional North Queensland, Australia person myself, otherwise known as country folk, loved it. Totally could resonate. And I'm just so proud to see an Aussie show like that on the global stage. What did you think I was going to say? Uh, nobody wants this.

[00:46:19] Alexis Zahner: Oh, good take,

[00:46:22] Sally Clarke: but not impactful. I can see, I can see that. Yeah.

[00:46:24] Alexis Zahner: Did love it. Yeah. I don't know why. Thanks to Yellowstone. It's like kind of become cool to be from the country again. And I never thought I'd feel that about where I'm from. So super proud. Love this for me. Yep. Amazing. And finally, your dream guest for

[00:46:38] Sally Clarke: 2025.

[00:46:40] Alexis Zahner: Johan Hari or Professor Scott Galloway. If y'all are listening to this. Please call the team. We would love to chat.

[00:46:48] Sally Clarke: Putting that out there to the universe.

[00:46:49] Alexis Zahner: Putting that out there to the universe.

[00:46:51] Sally Clarke: Well, it has been amazing to have this conversation with you, Lex, and honestly, it's really, you know, we did quite a lot of preparation putting together this list and then thinking about how we wanted to speak to it, but actually having this conversation has really helped me see Just how intersectional all of these aspects of human leadership are.

[00:47:10] Alexis Zahner: Absolutely. And I think the greatest privilege for me this year has actually been to learn this, rethink this, relearn this, and sort of feel like we've had an opportunity to integrate. This information from so many different perspectives this year, 24 different conversations with 24 different and drastically sort of demographically different, brilliant minds for me has given so much perspective to what these words mean and the level of nuance in them that I feel just so gifted with the learning opportunity that we've had this year.

[00:47:42] Alexis Zahner: So.

[00:47:43] Sally Clarke: Amazing. Couldn't agree more. Thank you so much, Lex. And thank you to everyone listening. This has been We Are Human Leaders. This is a wrap for 2024.