Dissent and Defy: Insubordination Done Effectively with Dr Todd Kashdan
Dr Todd Kashdan - Psychology Professor and Author
Dr. Todd B. Kashdan is Professor of Psychology at George Mason University. He is a leading authority on well-being, curiosity, psychological flexibility, and resilience. He has published over 225 peer-reviewed articles and is in the top 1% of cited scientists in the world (over 48,000 times). He received the American Psychological Association Award for Distinguished Scientific Early Career Contributions to Psychology.
Dr Todd Kashdan is the author of several books including Curious? Discover the Missing Ingredient to a Fulfilling Life (William Morrow/HarperCollins), The Upside of Your Dark Side (Penguin), and The Art of Insubordination: How to Dissent and Defy Effectively (Avery/Penguin).
His research is featured regularly in media outlets such as The Atlantic, Harvard Business Review, The New York Times, NPR, Fast Company, and Time Magazine. He is a keynote speaker and consultant for organizations as diverse as Microsoft, Mercedes-Benz, Prudential, General Mills, The United States Department of Defense, and World Bank Group. He's a twin with twin 16-year old daughters (and one more), with plans to rapidly populate the world with great conversationalists.
The Art of Insubordination: How to Dissent and Defy Effectively
Who do you think of when I say the words rebel or insubordination? Perhaps someone who’s disagreeable, maybe even aggressive, someone who sits outside society or the popular norm? What if I told you that insubordination, when done well, isn’t just useful – but should be encouraged? In this episode we’re learning how to dissent and defy effectively with Dr. Todd B. Kashdan, Professor of Psychology at George Mason University and author of The Art of Insubordination: How to dissent and defy effectively.
This conversation is one we wish we’d had at the beginning of our careers. Todd's wisdom has given us the language and the tools to not only understand how to challenge norms in our workplaces, societies and even political structures ourselves, but support and amplify the voices of others doing the same.
Todd is a leading authority on well-being, curiosity, psychological flexibility, and resilience. He has published over 225 peer-reviewed articles and is in the top 1% of cited scientists in the world (over 48,000 times). Todd has received the American Psychological Association Award for Distinguished Scientific Early Career Contributions to Psychology. He is the author of several books including Curious? Discover the Missing Ingredient to a Fulfilling Life, The Upside of Your Dark Side, and his latest The Art of Insubordination: How to Dissent and Defy Effectively which we unpack today.
To us Todd is a shining example of divergent thinking, both through his research and the incredible way he articles these important concepts. This conversation is an absolute must listen for anyone who is ready and feeling the urge to drive change in the world around them.
We’re excited to bring you this conversation, now let’s dive in.
Learn more about Dr Todd Kashdan and find his new book here:
Connect with Dr Todd Kashdan on Linkedin here.
Get your copy of Todd’s book The Art of Insubordination: How to Dissent and Defy Effectively.
Episode Transcript:
sally-clarke_1_04-16-2024_210211: Welcome to we are human leaders, Todd. It's really awesome to have you with us today. Can you tell us a little about yourself and what’s brought you to the important work you do today.
[00:00:28] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: I grew up not having a father figure. So, um, one woman raising twin two year olds and then pretty much having to learn life the hardest, most inefficient way possible by trial and error. So I had to find someone who teach me how to change a flat, find someone to teach me how to tie a tie. Um, I didn't get off my training wheels to eight years of age. So one of the side benefits of having this wild independence and lack of parental support is you just explore the world and figure out like what's dangerous and what you could put your finger into and what's going to shock you. Um, that really is the origin of me being interested in psychology is the idea that you can study how people can become resilient, how people can extract more well being from the world, irrespective of or positive reward, you know, intensive environments.
[00:01:22] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: And eventually I came professor at George Mason University and I founded the well being laboratory and been studying everything you want to talk about at a cocktail party for the last 25 years.
[00:01:37] sally-clarke_1_04-16-2024_210211: Amazing. It sounds like a very organic journey that sort of started quite early. I'm curious. Was there ever sort of in your teen years, like we, at that stage, we already pretty clear, like psychology was where it was at, or was that more of a later, later piece?
[00:01:49] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: No. Um, so I grew up in a pretty impoverished neighborhood. It was a very low income area and I wanted to be a lawyer. I mean, I always thought I would use my skills to be a trial lawyer and then fight for people that were wrongly incarcerated. And unfortunately I didn't get exposed to the innocence project or fortunately until I was in my twenties. If I was exposed that earlier, I probably would have wanted to work for an organization like that, which is helping the wrongfully convicted.
[00:02:16] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Hello, everyone. Um,
[00:02:18] sally-clarke_1_04-16-2024_210211: I relate to that kind of pivot. I think that's, and it's, I've spoken to so many people in the law, I think there is inherently almost an interest in and psychology and, and sort of what drives us as well. So I'm, I'm kind of not surprised that there's a little bit of an overlap there for you too.
[00:02:33] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: I mean, if you think about the origin of the literature on the value of dissenters, it all starts some studying juries and to figure out, I mean, many people have seen, you know, fond is movie of 12 angry men. And the whole premise being that you've got 12 people sort of non randomly assorted together to assert. Basically discern whether someone's going to be guilty, innocent, in jail, not in jail, or, you know, spend, uh, so many fines that their entire life is turned upside down, and you have to get this right, and you get this, uh, this groupthink that occurs very quickly, which is whoever is, and this, this is like every workplace meeting, whoever is the loudest, socially attractive person in the room, eats up all the air and people follow suit because all of life is high school, where you just want to be part of the cool crowd and not part of the other crowd.
[00:03:23] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: And unfortunately, our criminal justice system has the same cognitive biases built into the
[00:03:28] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: yeah,
[00:03:29] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: And so the question is, how do you become person that says, can we just pause for a second? I think we've prematurely ruled out a whole bunch of other hypotheses.
[00:03:42] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Todd, and that brings us so beautifully to a new book that we would love to unpack with you today. And it's called the art of insubordination, how to dissent and defy effectively. And I must say when Sally and I read this title, uh, we were immediately drawn to it, um, very much of what we do in our work is, um, I guess in a kind and gentle and covert way about dissent and, uh, defying the expectations and norms in the workplace setting.
[00:04:07] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: So we, we're so excited to unpack this book with you today. And it's been described as a comprehensive recipe for rebellion based on cutting edge science. So can you just tell us a little bit about firstly, the inspiration for this book?
[00:04:23] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: So this, like most authors, this is like a 5, 6 year journey. So this preceded COVID. It preceded, you know, all these max mandate fax mandates
[00:04:33] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Yeah.
[00:04:34] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: Donald Trump in the American presidency. And really, it was just at any point in history. There are a number of social norms that you realize that people follow that are dysfunctional. And
[00:04:45] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Mm.
[00:04:46] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: you get to the idea of is our human beings designed for monogamy. Um, should you be, should you have Children? Like, is it okay not to have Children? If you have parental leave policies in the workplace, does that have an unfortunate byproduct of punishing people that decide not to have Children?
[00:05:03] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Mm.
[00:05:04] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: what if you decide to have, uh, you want to have a marriage is based on love as opposed to an arranged marriage and you're from a muslim household in the Middle East.
[00:05:12] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: There's all these norms and I was interested in if you lack power. And you lack status and you don't have the numbers of people behind you. How do you prevent bullying? How do you prevent people from
[00:05:26] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Mm.
[00:05:27] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: attacked on a subway? How do you prevent someone from making sure that their voice is amplified if they're a newcomer in the workplace?
[00:05:33] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: And how do you speak up if someone's being trolled or, and you decide like, like what's, what is the effective strategy to make sure that this person is protected, but also to prevent something like this from happening again. And all of these things come together terms of, can you live your life in a unique way because your DNA in terms of the books you've read, the people you've met, the information you've accrued over your lifetime is unlike anyone that'll ever walk the earth. Your life shouldn't look like other people. And so what's, where's the social help book versus a self help book? That's going to have you sort of defy society a little bit.
[00:06:15] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Mm. It sounds to me, Todd, and I'm excited to dive into what exactly this looks like. Like it's an impa a powerful tool for folks, especially in minority groups to really look at how they. Yeah. Attack power systems or unpack power systems that are holding many of us, as you mentioned, um, from various backgrounds with, with various life experiences, um, you know, from the opportunity to really thrive.
[00:06:43] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: Yeah. And I do want to broaden out that word minority. Cause I think, especially as an American, we tend to think of it as demographic,
[00:06:51] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Yep.
[00:06:52] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: sexual orientation. And I also think it's personality dimension has a bell curve and you have. You know, the average person falls in the middle. So you have people at the extremes extremely conscientious almost obsessive compulsive disorder at one end and then completely disorganized You never want to spend time in their kitchen on the other end and you've got people that are agreeable and people are walking all over them and they're super kind and compassionate, but they're not being sufficiently selfish And on the other end you've got people that are quarrelsome.
[00:07:23] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: They're not evil They just, their strengths come out from arguing and taking counterpoints and when you're at the extreme endpoints of personality dimensions, you're often also a minority.
[00:07:36] sally-clarke_1_04-16-2024_210211: I love that you're highlighting that Todd, cause I think often when we talk about, um, know, these labels that we use as human beings, and it's, you know, very understandable that we, that we use these labels. It's kind of how our brains want to operate, but it can be very limiting and it can be immediately kind of a polarizing effect as well.
[00:07:51] sally-clarke_1_04-16-2024_210211: It's that, or that it's black or white. It's, and it's, that can really be quite divisive as well. So I think love it. If I'm understanding correctly, you're describing, there's kind of these spectrums in so many different dimensions that we're all on, which mean that we are inherently different and, and if I'm understanding correctly, there's That's a great thing.
[00:08:12] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: well it's interesting is that, is the situation, think of like, everyone should think about their personality as like a 16 sided piece of dice. And then the question is, which side would you want to show up because it energizes you and it brings out like the good qualities that you want to expose.
[00:08:32] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: But the other one is what's going to help you get the best possible outcome in the situation. And sometimes that's not what's going to make you feel good. So if,
[00:08:41] sally-clarke_1_04-16-2024_210211: mm-Hmm.
[00:08:41] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: if you, you know, every country must have this where. More than one car is pulling in for the same parking space. Someone's going to get it.
[00:08:49] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: Someone's not. Now that often leads to adult altercations. And sometimes I speak from personal experience in front of your 11 year old daughter, and there's no real bad guy or gal in this situation, but some people are really like aggressive. So in that scenario, what's the best side of your personality to expose to be persuasive enough to say, The best possible outcome is not for them to be your best friend and play pickleball with them.
[00:09:14] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: The best possible outcome is no violence, no aggression, and you can walk through the day and both people feel relatively good about themselves that they were hurt. That's the best you can ask for. If you get more wonderful in that situation, you don't always bring the Dalai Lama side of your personality out.
[00:09:32] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: Sometimes you
[00:09:33] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Mm,
[00:09:34] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: know, the Caitlin Clark side of your personality, which is a little bit aggressive and a little bit showing that you're not going to walk all over me, but I'm not going to attack first mentality. And I think that's psychological flexibility. That personality flexibility is a really important way of thinking about our sense of self.
[00:09:53] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: mm. To, to me, the words defy and dissent have sort of stood with negative connotations in my mind and certainly growing up in a household with strict rules, um, insubordination towards my parents was certainly not allowed. Um, it sounds to me, however, that you've got this reframe that these aren't negative.
[00:10:13] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: things. These don't go against society or the cultural groups or the workplace norms that we have in place. But in fact, they're an opportunity to challenge some of those preconceptions and long held views we might have about ourselves and the world around us.
[00:10:27] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: I should have had you write the flap of the book because that captures it beautifully. way. So if you don't like the word, yes. if you don't like the term, think about it as being a principled rebel
[00:10:41] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Mm,
[00:10:42] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: the context of a structured hierarchy, social hierarchy. Now in the military, that's where the term often comes from is that. You are speaking out against your superiors out of turn, out of rank. And you're, as you said, you're going to be punished quite severely for it. Um, now if you follow, I realized this is now the wrong context to mention this. So I'm ignoring the geopolitical conflict, but in Israel, um, the Israeli defense forces is a very good example where they actually train soldiers defy authority if they think they're doing something unethical or immoral.
[00:11:18] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: Now, that
[00:11:18] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: mm,
[00:11:19] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: they necessarily do in the United States. I don't know how they do this in Australia and other countries, but also nobody fights more people than we do in the United States in wars. And because of that, everyone feels empowered. And they're also searching for ethical, ethically uncertain or ambiguous situations. Whereas in the United States, you're looking for how do I stay between the lines so I don't get
[00:11:42] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: mm, mm,
[00:11:43] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: and move up the hierarchy. I would prefer to live in a world where people are looking for morally ambiguous situations of what can I do to be on the right side of things? And there's a big question there of what's the right side, but at least want people to initially think that I'm unsure what's the right thing to do.
[00:12:03] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: And then you could voice that opinion.
[00:12:05] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: mm.
[00:12:05] sally-clarke_1_04-16-2024_210211: And you mentioned the notion of group think earlier. Todd. I'm curious, why is it important that we have people around us with whom we disagree?
[00:12:14] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: The simplest answer is it is cognitively liberating or mentally liberating to have someone that disagrees with us in the room. So let's say that one of the three of us was completely on the other side on the issue of women reproductive rights. Now, here's the thing about the science. doesn't matter if the one of the three of us that's on the other side is right or wrong. What matters is, is that because their voice is actually being the conversation, those two other people now have to think about how would I describe my opinion on this issue about women's reproductive rights? I can't just say because I'm a woman because that's not persuasive by itself and it's very obvious on a surface level. The question
[00:12:58] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Mm.
[00:12:59] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: why is it important? Why is it something worth fighting for? Why is it? Why is it something that 2024? We're still having a conversation today and I'm going to spend airtime on this. The dissenting voice forces you into two different positions. One is kind of describe my position carefully enough, not so that the dissenter agrees. So that mind seems logical and not just based on a very strong emotion of disgust or indignation, which is not persuasive to other people. Now the
[00:13:29] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Mm.
[00:13:30] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: that could happen here is when a dissenter comes into the room and makes you rethink your opinions. Maybe my view on women's pre productive rights is not allowing people to have sufficient autonomy to make the decisions themselves.
[00:13:42] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: And I'm going. top down and actually maybe a little bit too totalitarian in my thinking. Now, so this is a really important takeaway from what I'm saying is that I'm not suggesting you want to centers because you want to flip people's positions. I'm suggested to centers sometimes help us move maybe three to 8 percent in our thinking such that it's healthier, it's more functional, and it brings more people to experience a higher level of welfare. Well, being an autonomy.
[00:14:17] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Todd, I can't help but think in today's social media age that this productive vs. unproductive form of disagreement is just something that we're not very good at and not very comfortable with. I mean we have the power to debate. proliferation of cancel culture all around us and misunderstood viewpoints, cultures, um, all of these sorts of things we see every day play out in social media.
[00:14:41] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Can you help us understand the skills required to actually have a productive versus a destructive, uh, disagreement?
[00:14:48] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: God, I love talking to you guys. Um, so there is, to me, this is, this is not in the book. And, um, there's, to me, there's a trifecta of psychological strengths that are necessary. And I want to kind of dig deep into them. Intellectual humility, curiosity and perspective getting which precedes perspective taking. And I think so. So let's hit the last one first, because we always hear about perspective taking. So, okay, I'm right now on a podcast with two women. So there is I'm gonna have to take your perspectives. We just live different with different, different lives from, you know, what clothes were put in his preemies to, you know, onward that comes on there before that could happen.
[00:15:28] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: I have to have basically the humility to realize just because we're all adults, just because we're all interested in psychology and healthy workplaces. We are going to approach the world differently. I have no idea what the two of you think about
[00:15:42] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Mmm,
[00:15:42] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: topics I'm going to bring up. So I have to sit back for a second and actually ask a few questions.
[00:15:48] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: Like, Hey, I'm curious in terms of like, I, when I bring up like women's reproductive rights, like what pops up for you and what did I get wrong?
[00:15:57] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: mmm,
[00:15:58] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: these are all interlock these strikes. It's basically is that I don't know everything I'm around people that are smarter than me. I'm going to assume people around me are smarter than me when I'm in a conversation and thus I see them as a portal of information and wisdom that I'm going to extract by
[00:16:15] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: mmm,
[00:16:16] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: I am getting your perspective by and not going to speak for you that I know your perspective.
[00:16:21] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: And I think one of the things that just like you said on the Internet is we don't do any of the perspective getting
[00:16:28] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: mmm,
[00:16:29] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: is like, I think you think this just on what you said before.
[00:16:33] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: mmm,
[00:16:34] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: and I'm going to attack it immediately and I'm not going to pause and say before I say anything because I kind of have a strong view about this.
[00:16:43] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: I just want to make sure where you stand and you let me know non negotiable things. You don't even want to talk about it.
[00:16:50] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: mmm,
[00:16:51] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: I just think about how that even feels,
[00:16:54] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: mmm, mmm,
[00:16:55] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: Like, I'd love to know where you stand first before we get into any sort of productive disagreement here, and then tell me what you don't even want to touch because I don't want to make this into a, about our relationship versus the topic we're talking about. I've just given you so much license to be that you're human and I see your humanity and we're going to bring that to the table and we're going to focus on the task, not the relationship, which all the science shows. If you argue about the task and not the relationship. Teams get better. Ideas
[00:17:28] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: mmm.
[00:17:28] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: As soon as the relationship comes in, all of a sudden now that becomes the priorities.
[00:17:33] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: I feel ostracized. I feel hurt. I feel
[00:17:36] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Yep.
[00:17:36] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: And now you've left topic that's so important behind.
[00:17:40] sally-clarke_1_04-16-2024_210211: Mm mm-Hmm.
[00:17:42] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Todd, I love this discernment of the task conflict and sort of to Sally's point earlier as well around these labels. It would seem to me that a lot of the struggle people have with this idea of separating themselves from the conversation we're having is maybe an overattachment with some of the labels that they identify as.
[00:18:02] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Do you see this playing out in the research as well?
[00:18:05] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: In the research, in the classroom, when I do
[00:18:08] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Yeah.
[00:18:09] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: with corporations, I mean, so I'm raising three daughters. Um, I'm in a, I'm in a major, psychology, which is predominantly women. I often say something that, that you should be cautious about defining yourself as any category. So whether
[00:18:24] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Mmm.
[00:18:24] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: party, whether that's a feminist or not feminist, um, whether that's, um, um, describing yourself as, um, you know, niche, a, a, a, you know, uh, like an. A follower of Nietzsche or Jordan Peterson or, you know, insert, insert the person. Anytime you do that now, all of the baggage that's attached to that is now in a backpack that comes into this conversation that has nothing to do potentially with anything that you're thinking, feeling or doing. And
[00:18:57] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Mm.
[00:18:58] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: say, Wait later for those labels and focus more on what is your unique ideas and thinking about this action topic?
[00:19:06] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: Because as soon as you say, I'm a feminist, I'm a libertarian, um, I'm for climate change. Now you've labeled yourself. that now I see, okay, there are now areas where it is going, you're going, you're going to be stubborn. You're going to be defensive. And now we're already at an awkward conversation unnecessarily.
[00:19:27] sally-clarke_1_04-16-2024_210211: Yeah. I love how you're describing. These labels that we use as kind of almost as an armor sometimes, I think, but they can actually really limit us because there's often so many assumptions and associations surrounding those labels that we kind of limit ourselves and we limit the capacity for sort of free and open discussion that may actually get us a little bit closer to each other's thinking. And it's kind of, it's interesting cause it's, uh, it's something that I've felt quite almost as an inherent. truth in myself, something that I've sort of over the years have come to you, like the less, the older I get, the less labels I want to sort of be attached to. So it's interesting that that's actually also reflected in, in the research that it's, we kind of liberate ourselves through dropping some of these labels or perhaps introducing them later. I'm curious, how, do you have any examples of where you've seen leaders succeed able to drive. Not, so we're not talking about some full cohesive agreement, but drive those kind of conversations or situations where, you know, different parties do come that little bit closer together. You mentioned earlier, you know, getting three to 8% closer in terms of perspective. Do you have any examples perhaps from the book where you've seen that happen successfully?
[00:20:44] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: Yeah, I mean, Google, Google has been extremely good about this, where they are very data driven. I hate to use a tech company because they're so unlike the rest of humanity. Um, but what what they've been very interested in is they create a portal where people can have unfiltered conversations. during and after any conversations happen in the workplace. And that thing is considered the most protected. I know this is now a loaded term, free speech area in the organization such that you're able to say anything, but the idea is no ad hominems. So don't attack the person, only attack the ideas. And in those forums, those online forums within the organization that none of us have access to because we don't work for Google. Um, you can challenge the leader, something that you would not say face to face. You can say online. What I like about this is is mostly most organizations have the opposite, which is that I don't want you saying anything online that you wouldn't say to me face to face. I would say that is a understanding of power differentials between people in an organization or in a team is that everyone is there is no equality.
[00:21:54] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: There never will be
[00:21:55] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Mm.
[00:21:55] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: in an organization. And so how can uh, someone that's working part time because they're partially on maternity leave Possibly challenge the C. F. O. Of a company in
[00:22:07] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Mm.
[00:22:08] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: they think that their policies are actually not allowing them sufficient flexibility and freedom to do the work the way that they want to. They're not going to say something in a meeting, no matter how much you talk about psychological safety and that this is this is a place where you can you can share your ideas and you won't be criticized. None of that is true. Like an organization does not have 100 percent freedom to actually speak your mind. But if you have an online forum. you clarify the culture of that clearly, and everyone agrees that they sign off on that checklist before every time before they log on to that website. Now, in that place, it can be lightly moderated where those people that are more reserved and quiet can speak their piece.
[00:22:50] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: So a good a good template for other organizations to go, which is what do you have that is the same vein of this online, quote unquote, free speech form in your organization, and it could it could be as simply as a comment box, which almost every single fast food franchise has. The problem with that is that it's not automatically being responded to in real time, not just who's the recipient of that message, but anyone that's in the background. And the thing about workplace culture, Or just group cultures. not what you do to me as an individual. If I'm the dissenter, it is that if you punish me for speaking out of turn and saying, I don't think you know enough about the economics of this company to talk about what we can afford in terms of flexibility for people in the workplace, now basically told everyone else Don't speak on any topic unless you have sufficient encyclopedic background, knowledge on that, and now you've just lost all the creativity information in your group.
[00:23:57] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: A really important insight there, Todd. And, you know, the workplace is, is sort of a microcosm of like our greater societies and, and, um, you know, political systems as a whole. And it's interesting that this power dynamic can really, really disrupt the ability to have those productive disagreements.
[00:24:17] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: Yeah. And, and, and I really like to emphasize this term. Now it's the second time I'm using it. Social attractiveness, not physical attractiveness. It's basically who's the person you want to be around. Who's the person when they speak, everyone puts down their phones and listens. Who's the person who's when they say something, almost invariably people are nodding their heads and saying like, Oh, that's a good point. There's always one person in the group that you would love to win their likability and their attention. and
[00:24:45] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Mm.
[00:24:46] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: You want the presence near you. That person has to be leveraged by the leader of the group. And that person is by default a leader of the group. And that person has to be told that when you speak, you have to understand I'm going to get the next meeting. People listen more carefully than other people. And a good teacher in, in, in grade school does this for that kid in the classroom, a good leader, make sure that they leverage that person. And when you're, when you're the coach of us, of an athletic team, it might not
[00:25:17] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Yeah.
[00:25:18] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: player. It's like the cool one, like
[00:25:21] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Yeah.
[00:25:21] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: player,
[00:25:21] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Yeah. I
[00:25:22] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: make sure that, Hey, I want you to be the one that lets the know this message, because I know they're going to listen to you and not to me and to not take advantage of that socially attractive person.
[00:25:33] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: And to not also you want to them and make sure like, listen, I need you not to talk at this meeting because I need to hear the opinions of other people that are unlikely to speak. As soon as you speak, they're probably to be on your side. And I want to know how many sides are available, how many opinions are there and get a feel for the entire place.
[00:25:56] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: It's such an important thing to understand, Todd, because I think it's also deeply empowering when we look at formal power structures, because it allows us to see that influence sits outside of that. And so if we are in a group that is moving against a popular narrative or a norm within a, we'll say the workplace, by leveraging the right pockets of influence, we can actually create that little bit of groundswell to start being heard in a more effective way.
[00:26:22] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: That's such a powerful way to look at it.
[00:26:36] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: last organization I worked with, can't name them because of the NDA, um, I basically had the group write down on a piece of paper, um, the initials of every person that was in this room, Your energy, how does it change regularly after interacting with them?
[00:26:53] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: So from negative three, where they put you into a black hole versus positive three, which is basically there, your expresso, like what's happening to you after direct. And from that information, I was able to make graphically show. The energy network of the entire group. And you could see who are the nuclei, like, who are these like wonderful sons that everyone orbits around?
[00:27:15] sally-clarke_1_04-16-2024_210211: Mm-Hmm
[00:27:16] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: then
[00:27:16] sally-clarke_1_04-16-2024_210211: mm.
[00:27:16] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: to what degree is it related to, as you said, the formal power structure and the salaries that people are making organizations? One of the things that's kind of interesting is some of these nuclei are young people with a ton of energy, not a lot of wisdom about the organization, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But they're just full of ideas and they're receptive and they, you know, they haven't been bruised and cut enough times where they're just like little kids are just excited to hear people speak and they charge up other people and they're the ones that are making, you know, chump change in terms of, and they have very minuscule power and an energy network makes you see, oh, this is someone that is being underutilized and they're being undercompensated.
[00:27:59] sally-clarke_1_04-16-2024_210211: Yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating to think, like, particularly those people who, who don't have that cynicism potentially yet, and who just really do have that positive yet genuine energy that can be so impactful for people around them.
[00:28:15] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: That person for for this conversation and this this thinking about dissent their dissenter they dissent from the norm of like you're saying a level of drudgery and cynicism and you know this is a hard this is a hard feel for us to be working and you know you're you're making like better sponges for you know for the for the the kitchen sink that happens to this is not an exciting industry but we make a lot of money and Um, in this marketplaces, that person descends from this, this morass that everyone else is experiencing. And so some, there's some nice beauty to them. We want to make sure we take advantage of them and we definitely don't want to squelch them. Like what you don't want is someone who's been there for 35 years on the cusp of retirement to say, listen, just know, It's great that you feel this way, but you're going to be like me in 30 years.
[00:29:08] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: Don't have that person mentoring that nuclei.
[00:29:13] sally-clarke_1_04-16-2024_210211: And on that, Todd, I'm really curious, what are the other things that leaders could potentially do when we, when we spotted a center and we can see that energy, what can we do to really support them on, on that journey? Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.
[00:29:27] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: strategy, and this was published in the, um, uh, in a business journal is that, but this, this, so most of this research was on women who are in the minority in an organization. So you're talking about one to two women. and majority men. the question was, how do you get their creative ideas into the mix?
[00:29:46] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: And the strategy that they found was, you get one of these socially attractive people that I'm referencing, and you ask them, or you train them, or you tell them there's a norm. If you hear a good idea from someone else that typically doesn't speak in this culture, I want you to share their ideas for them and make sure they're highlighted and spotlighted.
[00:30:09] sally-clarke_1_04-16-2024_210211: Hmm.
[00:30:10] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Mm
[00:30:10] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: in this research is that when, when you amplify the voice of someone else and say, listen, I don't know if you've been hanging out with Sally, but Sally was talking about like these sponges, like, Like there is this coral in Australia in, you know, in the Great Barrier Reef, that's, that's basically dying.
[00:30:28] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: And yet if you melt it down and it ends up being this really powerful, like recyclable material,
[00:30:34] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: mm-Hmm.
[00:30:34] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: about like the use of sponges. And we've never even considered this before that under the sea are potentially the cheap ingredients that we can use to improve our products. And we will, we will lower the price of sponges like throughout the entire world. And so do I do this? And mention Sally's name. I physically point my face in the direction of Sally with my hands like animated and pointing to her, and I'm kind of giving her all the credit. Now, what happens in the aftermath of this? My social attractiveness in this group has a spillover effect and Sally gets bathed in it and gets that right in that moment.
[00:31:13] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: There is a level of what's called a, um, a novelty reward.
[00:31:18] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: mm
[00:31:18] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: There's like, who is this person? So like, why aren't we hearing her for more often? And like, why is Todd spending so much time talking about her? So now there's this glow, this aura that comes in there. get rewarded because I found and basically recruited great good talent that's been ignored right in front of us.
[00:31:36] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: Sally looks good basically because now all of a sudden her idea is actually going to platform and the group gets better because now there's a recognition of, Oh, what other hidden voices do we have in this room that we're not paying attention to? So you have a win, win, win situation. All that requires is you to create a norm of I don't just want you to share your ideas.
[00:31:57] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: If you hear that someone else has ideas, do know you will be treated with great respect and appreciation for
[00:32:05] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: mm-Hmm.
[00:32:06] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: them.
[00:32:08] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Todd, you mentioned three attributes earlier. It sounds to me that this would be a leader tapping into that. So those attributes, correct me if I'm wrong, was intellectual humility, curiosity, and perspective getting, is that a leader demonstrating those three things?
[00:32:24] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: Absolutely. And, and we really, really want these strengths to be viewed. So every individual varies in their, Uh, their matrix in terms of like what, where they are in particular dimensions. And then the group is somewhat like not just the average, but also like, what are, what is, what's the variability that we have in this room?
[00:32:44] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: Like, do we have people who are extremely high intellectual humility, curiosity, and perspective getting, if so, how can they lead these meetings and search for the Sally's in the room? And then the leader. Because they're and they're often should be the last voice in the room is they want to clarify. They should be clarifying verbally moments when people express those strengths.
[00:33:07] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: They should be acknowledging exactly what happened. Hey, I just want to point out this is a really great meeting, Todd. Thank you for kind of reintroducing Sally to our team because now we
[00:33:17] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Mm.
[00:33:18] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: ideas we haven't heard before that happened there and then maybe reference to other things that happen that fit into this You know, trifecta of intellectual humility, curiosity and perspective gating and then what happens for the next meeting people want to be the one whose name is told at the end of the meeting.
[00:33:34] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Mm. I, I hate to point out hacks here, Todd, but that seems like such a simple psychology hack to reinforce the behaviors that we want to see in a group setting and, and really buck those norms that might be present.
[00:33:45] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: Yeah, you just you just have to follow the incentives. And so
[00:33:49] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:33:50] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: happens now, uh, leader makes a joke at the end of the meeting. Thanks, everyone that we actually we ended 10 minutes early and then you leave
[00:33:58] sally-clarke_1_04-16-2024_210211: hmm.
[00:33:58] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: you miss this great
[00:34:00] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: So true.
[00:34:01] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: to
[00:34:01] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Yeah.
[00:34:02] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: Like, what's the thing you want to see more of at the next one?
[00:34:05] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: And it's, it's, know, it's, it's kind of mind blowing how we give away these, these growth opportunities.
[00:34:13] sally-clarke_1_04-16-2024_210211: It almost makes me think, I think, you know, on so many levels, you know, personally and professionally, we miss these opportunities to kind of acknowledge something that has transpired. And I think, you know, particularly for, for, for leaders, there's a real onus and an opportunity there to, to be reflecting back to individuals in the group, something really great that's happened and to just hold that space almost hold that moment of, Hey, that was, that was really special.
[00:34:36] sally-clarke_1_04-16-2024_210211: It's such a. Um, you know, a sad thing to miss that opportunity.
[00:34:42] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: Yeah, and, and here's what's really important. I think for me, I've realized the importance of very careful precision in what you're actually doing. So there
[00:34:53] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Hmm.
[00:34:53] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: of my colleagues. Um, I used to do this as well. You would have a mindfulness intervention for the, for an organization or gratitude intervention or a savoring intervention. Everything listed as described could fall under one of those terms. You're mindfully attentive. You're appreciative. You're savoring something that happened. I would say we have to be even more precise. We are trying to alter the norm such that we can extract more wisdom that's unique from individuals in this room, and you can say we're going to use some mindfulness strategies, saving strategies, gratitude strategies, don't call it, don't call it a gratitude intervention, because then you got people talking about things that are nothing to do necessarily with what the objective is of the of the group.
[00:35:35] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Hmm.
[00:35:36] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: then what happens? The meetings get longer, the meetings get, um, are so as to focus on more tangential information, and people disengage. And that's the danger of saying, we want to get better, but I don't know exactly what our objective is.
[00:35:56] sally-clarke_1_04-16-2024_210211: It's such an important point to make a think Todd think for all of us. Ensuring that these kind of things don't just end up being another, add-on to the zillion things that we already have to do in a meeting. That it's just we we're making things, making work longer and making those, making those meetings longer instead being really intentional about it and making it something that's, that's, that's highly effective for that reason.
[00:36:17] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: Yeah. So I've been, I've been in workplace meetings where I used to work on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange where you would go around in a circle and say, Hey, say one good thing that happened to you over the past weekend. After two of those, you realize, can we cut out that half an hour that happens there? Now a much better approach would be the midpoint of the meeting when there's like a drop in the energy in the room to say, Hey, I'm curious if like I can get three people just to kind of reveal. Like what's something outside of the silo of where we are, where you found something interesting information that might be useful for what we're working on.
[00:36:54] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: And then someone might say, Hey, I saw this documentary about an octopus and then it could lead to all sorts of creative insights to happen there. And then someone might say, I was watching, you know, I was watching this Korean reality TV show. The, the, 100, the physical 100. And I was thinking of like, you know,
[00:37:12] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Yeah.
[00:37:13] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: are like a neck up company and we're not really thinking about our bodies.
[00:37:16] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: And, and so that is that to your point is you're intentionally bringing divergent ideas into the room, right? Thinking like a principled rebel maybe it works out, maybe it doesn't, but it's also, it's not onerous. Everyone's very intrigued by what kind of weird stuff like our people expose themselves
[00:37:37] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Hmm.
[00:37:38] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: in terms of information, knowledge, wisdom.
[00:37:42] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: I love that point, Todd. And as someone who's worked in things like government in the past, um, where things can feel very stifled, um, obviously very siloed, but I like this idea that it's almost drawing on inspiration and creativity from. Places where people might not even understand it comes from. And I just wonder in your experience, it seems to me that creativity and innovation may be one outcome of this kind of thinking.
[00:38:05] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: What else have you seen, um, go well for organizations when they encourage this divergent, um, sort of insubordination, if you will?
[00:38:14] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: So great question. Let me pull back from that from a second and think of the two questions that people are asking themselves before they decide to disagree with the status quo in the room or challenge the norms in the room. The two questions are, If this was such a great idea, why wouldn't have someone said this before?
[00:38:33] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: So it's almost this
[00:38:35] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Mm hmm.
[00:38:35] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: humility position of like, I know I'm not the smartest person in this room. Like if this was, I mean, so and then the other one is, I feel like I have enough bandwidth to be vilified and negatively evaluated
[00:38:48] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Mm.
[00:38:50] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: and putting an inefficiency in our conversation by saying, can we just pause?
[00:38:55] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: I think we're going in the wrong direction. So there's a fear of rejection, and there's an imposter syndrome element that comes in here. And I think it's very important to acknowledge that these questions, everyone's asking them, and most of them are not based in reality or have any evidence behind them. And I think it's really important to test these by throwing it out there and see that the worst thing that often happens is that people just stop, you know. And say, Okay, anyway, so the next thing on our agenda happens to be and they ignore you and you realize like that's that's often the worst thing that happens.
[00:39:32] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: And it's just yes, it's a little bit painful. have a little loss of breath, but we recover from that. And often there's someone after the meeting that says, Hey, loved your idea. Like, I don't know why anyone didn't say anything about it.
[00:39:47] sally-clarke_1_04-16-2024_210211: I love that message, Todd. And I think also as, um, you know, something that Alexis and I say often to each other is, you know, no, one's going to die. So let's just talk about this. Like we can, we can, you know, we might lose half an hour of chatting, but no, one's going to die. It's going to be, it's a safe space.
[00:40:01] sally-clarke_1_04-16-2024_210211: And I
[00:40:02] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Yeah.
[00:40:02] sally-clarke_1_04-16-2024_210211: in sort of, um, personal experience as a, as a leader as well, the number of times where. You know, you put yourself out on a little bit of a limb, it doesn't always work, but then you can also, you go to bed that night and you've put yourself out on the limb and you've tried
[00:40:15] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Mm.
[00:40:15] sally-clarke_1_04-16-2024_210211: can, you know, um,
[00:40:18] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: easy.
[00:40:19] sally-clarke_1_04-16-2024_210211: exactly fine piece of that.
[00:40:21] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Yeah.
[00:40:21] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: Yeah, I mean, I think I think we're starting. I think Brene Brown has done a really nice job of putting. Social bravery into the spotlight, kind of like Susan Cain put the idea of all right, maybe introverted people have a great deal to bring to society and I love that she has this idea of like, know, gauging your days by did I do something that was actually, um, challenging for me personally, or I challenged something that I thought was wrong. I mean, our world to go back to the social media features of our society is filled with bystanders who just. Watch bullies go by and
[00:40:59] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Yeah.
[00:41:00] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: when you create a norm that as when you're watching and not saying anything that no one's going to step in because everybody's afraid of being attacked if they actually throw themselves in the mix, you have to ask whether this is the world that you want to sleep like go to sleep thinking of like that.
[00:41:16] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: I helped contribute to or do you throw something else out there and you maybe you get some friction, but the idea is that It's like I can, I'm going to go to sleep tonight and I'm going to have in my obituary of someone that actually stood up for things that I believed in. And you don't get bravery points unless you're going against where the tides are moving.
[00:41:39] sally-clarke_1_04-16-2024_210211: beautifully put Todd. I think this has been such an incredible exploration of the science as well as the art of insubordination. And I'd love to finish, I think by asking. For leaders who are listening right now, who are maybe wondering how they can sort of implement this, this in their work days. What would be a first step that you would advise them to take on sort of the journey towards becoming insubordinate?
[00:42:05] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: I would say is that you want to start meetings by relaying very succinctly. What are the norms of the group you want to start meetings with? let me give a concrete example of this. I don't think we do this. I think we assume like everyone's got it. Everyone understands how this place operates. think it's very useful to say, I just want to reiterate we all like each other.
[00:42:29] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: Most of us like each other a lot. But in this meeting in this group right now, we don't care about positivity. We don't care about conformity. We don't compare about cohesion.
[00:42:41] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Mm.
[00:42:42] todd_1_04-16-2024_150211: Our objective is to make the best decisions possible with the information that's at hand. And some of you have information that other people don't have there, which means that we need to get the ideas in the room. And what this means is focus on the ideas, not the people. I don't care where it comes from. I don't want I don't want you to care which person it comes from. Let's get the ideas out there for the goal of making the best decisions possible.
[00:43:13] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-17-2024_050212: Todd, thank you. This has been such a wonderfully thought provoking and highly practical conversation on how to dissent and defy more effectively. Um, it's been a pleasure having you with us on We Are Human Leaders. Thank you.