You Belong Here: The Journey of Becoming Yourself, Everywhere with Kim Dabbs
Kim Dabbs - Global Leader and Advocate on Purpose and Belonging, Author
Kim Dabbs is a global leader in Belonging and Purpose, whose unique life story informs her passionate advocacy for inclusion and understanding. Born in Korea and adopted by American parents, Kim's journey has taken her from feeling perpetually out of place in different cultures to becoming an influential voice in creating spaces where everyone feels they belong.
As the Global Vice President of ESG and Social Innovation at Steelcase, she applies her extensive experience in social innovation, honed through roles like the Executive Director of the West Michigan Center for Arts and Technology and a residency at Stanford's d.school, to foster more inclusive and equitable environments.
As a sought-after speaker, Kim has delivered keynotes to organizations and institutions such as Google, Microsoft, MIT, The Drucker Forum, and The Guggenheim. Her debut book You Belong Here: The Power of Being Seen, Heard and Valued on Your Own Terms, reflects her transformation from a cultural chameleon trying to fit in to a thought leader who champions the idea of belonging to oneself.
What does it mean to belong? And, how can we become ourselves everywhere, authentically?
In this episode with Kim Dabbs we unpack what it means to belonging, and how we step into this power for ourselves. Through Kim’s rich lived-experience as a Korean-born, American living in Munich, Germany she shares what it’s felt like in her experience to be ‘from every where but belong nowhere.’
You Belong Here: How to become yourself, everywhere
Kim’s most recent book You Belong Here: The Power of Being Seen, Heard and Valued on Your Own Terms helps us explore the four identities - lived, learned, lingering and loved identities - we each have, and how these impact how we show up in the world.
Learn more about Kim Dabbs and find her new book here:
Connect with Kim Dabbs on Linkedin here.
Get your copy of Kim’s book You Belong Here: The Power of Being Seen, Heard and Valued on Your Own Terms here.
Episode Transcript:
[00:00:00] Sally Clarke: Welcome to We Are Human Leaders. We tend to think of belonging as something that occurs in a group context, like belonging to a team, an organization, or a community. But what if belonging really starts as an inner journey? A journey of self leadership and radical curiosity towards deeply belonging to yourself, first and foremost.
[00:00:33] Sally Clarke: I'm Sally Clarke, and today, Alexis Zahner and I are speaking with Kim Dabbs. A global leader in belonging and purpose. About her incredible debut book, You Belong Here. The power of being seen, heard, and valued on your own terms. Born in Korea, adopted by American parents, and now living in Germany, Kim's journey has taken her from feeling perpetually out of place in different cultures, to becoming an influential voice in creating spaces where everyone feels they belong.
[00:01:03] Sally Clarke: Kim is Global Vice President of ESG and Social Innovation at Steelcase, a and a sought after keynote speaker. She applies her extensive experience to foster more inclusive and equitable environments and inspire leaders to commence their own belonging journey. Today, we explore her transformation from a cultural chameleon trying to fit in to a thought leader who champions the idea of belonging to yourself, who helps us understand the four identities each of us has, and shares examples and experiences to illustrate how you can increase belonging for yourself, those around you, and even the world at large.
[00:01:41] Sally Clarke: Let's delve in.
[00:01:45] Alexis Zahner: Welcome to We Are Human Leaders, Kim, it's an absolute pleasure to have you here with us today. And we'd love to begin by getting to know you a little bit more first and the journey that has brought you to this important work that you are doing today.
[00:02:01] Kim Dabbs: Thank you so much for having me with you today. I so appreciate the invitation.
[00:02:06] Kim Dabbs: I'm Kim Dabbs. I have just published a new book, You Belong Here, The Power of Being Seen, Heard, and Valued on Your Own Terms. And my journey here hasn't always been a straight path. So currently I serve as the global vice president of ESG and social innovation for a company called Steelcase. We're a global design and thought leader in the world of work.
[00:02:30] Kim Dabbs: And when we started building our strategy around people and planet, we would always root it in this idea or this fundamental belief that better is possible, but we continue to ask ourselves what is better because we know that the starting point for everyone on their path to better is so different. And for me as an individual.
[00:02:54] Kim Dabbs: I always believe that better for people really belongs in a way to community and that community finds our way to belonging. You know, a lot of times we define ourselves by our corporate sector jobs or our public sector jobs or whatever our career is. And I think I've worked in multiple different sectors over a lot of different years.
[00:03:16] Kim Dabbs: So I've worked leading non profit organizations in equity and education. I've led public policy and advocacy initiatives in the United States, and what I found is the longer that I experienced barriers to progress for the organizations and the people we serve, the more I wanted to work at scale within our own systems, because I see so many root causes of so many of the issues that people face there.
[00:03:45] Kim Dabbs: So I really wanted to work at a systems level, those impacted around equitable access to opportunity. But before you see my professional side, I think there's so much more to see on the individual side because my life didn't start here. We're not born into our careers. So, I'm a Korean born American adoptee that currently lives in Munich, Germany.
[00:04:11] Kim Dabbs: And I tell people that because I felt for so many years that the world was made up of places I didn't belong. I'm And this journey of understanding who I am, my identity, and those things that I grapple with also became a journey towards belonging to myself so I can really discover others.
[00:04:34] Sally Clarke: Thank you, Kim.
[00:04:35] Sally Clarke: So beautifully put, Kim. Thank you so much for sharing that journey. I think both professionally and personally, that will resonate for a lot of us. And I love how you describe belonging to yourself as well as part of this journey. I'm curious to understand, how do you define belonging, and what makes it so important to us as humans?
[00:04:55] Kim Dabbs: So I like to think of belonging, even if you just deconstruct the word itself, belonging, that first part B is, is to exist, long is that desire, and the ING is this continual action. So when I think about belonging, it's every individual is actively on a journey to exist. and understand and contextualize that existence here in the world.
[00:05:22] Kim Dabbs: So I think it's more of a journey. Belonging is forever work. It's not something that one day that we hit and we're like, Oh, okay, I belong now. It's that constant exploration and it's the constant questioning and acceptance of who you are and the places we share.
[00:05:40] Alexis Zahner: And Kim, in What does that mean in the context of work?
[00:05:44] Alexis Zahner: What does it mean in terms of our workplaces or our teams? How do we belong there?
[00:05:50] Kim Dabbs: That's a great question. You know, as I shared, I'm currently living in Munich, Germany, in a place where I feel like I belong everywhere. And I belong nowhere. I think this is a similar experience that all of us feel. You don't have to live in the place that you weren't born to experience that.
[00:06:08] Kim Dabbs: I think we're, we all feel like outsiders at some point in our life. And as I go about my days, you know, when I go back to Korea, Koreans tell me I'm too American. And when I'm in the U S Americans tell me I'm too Korean. And here in Germany, so often I'm just told, you know, you're not German. And everywhere I go, people remind me I'm not one of them.
[00:06:35] Kim Dabbs: I always think of myself as the hot potato of inclusion and it hurts. And to deal with this pain, I, you know, spent decades trying to find ways to become a cultural chameleon. I would change my hair, clothes, my words. And I did this in an attempt to make others feel more comfortable in the places and spaces we shared.
[00:06:57] Kim Dabbs: Um, and I think that in the workplace as well, so often from the moment we try to engage with the workplace, some of us are forced to change even the way that we pronounce our names. So when we think about the workplace, one of the last places in the world where all of us can come together, not surrounded by people exactly like us, not surrounded by people that we get to curate or choose every single day.
[00:07:27] Kim Dabbs: I look at this as a place of opportunity to explore how do we start to have dialogue, how do we start to live in cohesion, have civil discourse, learn how to interact with others that aren't just like us. And to me, that's where the opportunity lies.
[00:07:48] Alexis Zahner: And Kim, you mentioned this concept earlier about belonging to yourself.
[00:07:54] Alexis Zahner: You know, why is understanding and knowing our own individual identity So essential to creating a culture of belonging. And is this idea of belonging to ourselves, our own identity, first and foremost, the place that we start on this journey to creating workplaces and communities where everyone can experience belonging?
[00:08:12] Kim Dabbs: Absolutely. I think many of us, and it's a normal human reaction. Many of us look to the outside world to define where and when we belong instead of doing the work on ourselves, for ourselves. And when we do that, we allow others to define how we're seen, heard, and valued, instead of doing that on our own terms.
[00:08:34] Kim Dabbs: Part of this journey is believing we're equal and believing that each of us has a right to be at the same table. And it's the first step in belonging and understanding that it's not people, but the systems that we live in a lot of times that deny us that equality. So, without this foundation People at work will continue to wear masks in an attempt to fit in, and that rollover effect over and over and over starts to impact our culture, not just at work, but in the community, homes, and everyday interactions that we have.
[00:09:12] Kim Dabbs: So that belonging journey of each of us as leaders, as individuals within the workplace, the more that we can understand who we are. Ourselves and do that inner work, the better that we can show up for our teams and for our organizations in the world.
[00:09:30] Sally Clarke: I love how you've described the opportunity that exists in the workplace, Kim, sort of meaningful change, because when we can see that there are sort of systemic solutions potentially, then we can really have this change at scale, which could be so meaningful.
[00:09:45] Sally Clarke: And I also love how you sort of unpack this importance also of identity as our own individual journey. And, you know, I think speaking from my own experience, I've certainly, you know, lived in quite a number of different countries and. Had this experience of trying to work out how to be what I thought others expected of me or needed from me, rather than doing that work of almost peeling back the onion layers to my own sense of identity and being really comfortable and holding space for that in myself.
[00:10:14] Sally Clarke: And I love in your book, you sort of take us through this beautifully powerful exploration of the belonging journey. And in particular, you highlight the four identities as part of this journey. I was wondering if you could perhaps unpack for us What the four identities are.
[00:10:30] Kim Dabbs: Yeah. This belonging journey is one to help us really process and understand who we are and how we show up in the world.
[00:10:38] Kim Dabbs: And those four identities build belonging because they play a critical role in all of those everyday experiences and how we process that. I like to think about this much like we do about diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. So when we start on this belonging journey. The four identities that I talk about is our lived, learned, lingering, and loved identities.
[00:11:04] Kim Dabbs: And that lived identity, this first one, when you really start to see it, this becomes the thing that a lot of people talk about is diversity. These are the things that we inherit when we're born. These are the numbers, the data. Those are the things that fundamentally we can't change. I can't change the fact that I was born in Korea.
[00:11:23] Kim Dabbs: I can't change the fact that I was born into poverty. These are parts of the things that make our origin stories. Our learned identity, that's the equity piece. These are the choices we have in our life or the ease of choices. How we can actually interact with the world, our professions, job titles, our family, our relationships, our education.
[00:11:49] Kim Dabbs: And the thing I like to always ask with that learned identity, and what I start to appeal back and explore is. How easy is it to have access to that opportunity, and where are those systemic barriers for people within organizations and in the world? The lingering identity, that's the one that every time we show up and within organizations, our values are pressure tested, or as an individual, our values are pressure tested.
[00:12:19] Kim Dabbs: What is our default position that we hang back to? That's when that amygdala starts to fire up and we go into that fight, flight, or fawn response. And the more that we can edit our understanding of that lingering identity, explore how we show up in those moments of stress. That's where we can start to take back pieces of our identity.
[00:12:43] Kim Dabbs: That's the inclusion piece. So just because we're. included in a conversation or just because we're included in a workplace. It doesn't mean that it's not without barrier. And those are times where we really have to lean in for ourselves and others to understand how we each show up and what those stories are that we tell about.
[00:13:06] Kim Dabbs: We tell ourselves about who we are and where we belong. Now our left identity, that's the belonging piece. That's the outcome of diversity, equity, and inclusion. They're all in service of belonging. Because when we belong to ourselves, that's when we transform all of those other identities into one that we love.
[00:13:26] Kim Dabbs: And they each play a critical role in how we're seen, heard, and valued in the world. That's the piece where we can show up with authenticity and empowerment, and we understand our values and we get to decide and define all those things for ourselves.
[00:13:41] Alexis Zahner: It sounds to me, Kim, as, you know, someone who's female and has worked in things like male dominated industries in the past, where I felt like I've had to leave parts of myself at the door and perhaps modify some of my behavior to be, or tend towards more masculine so I can feel like I can be heard in the room and things like that.
[00:14:02] Alexis Zahner: That would be me stepping outside of that loved identity and defaulting to perhaps some of those learned and. Maybe lingering identity pieces. Is that sort of how that shows up for people in the workplace?
[00:14:15] Kim Dabbs: Absolutely. That's exactly it. And it can shift from meeting room to meeting room. One meeting room you're in, you can show up and you're like, wow, I can authentically be who I am.
[00:14:26] Kim Dabbs: Yeah. And then you turn on another meeting and you're like, wow, I don't think this place or space is made for me. And so we've all felt that way at some point in our lives. And when we walk into those rooms, we can almost feel it before we can name it. We can feel it in our bodies before we have the words to be able to share it.
[00:14:49] Kim Dabbs: And that's why I encourage so many people to do this inner work. So when you have those physical cues, when you have these other social cues, you can really understand how to process, bring life, bring words, and lean into your values. Because we all face them every single day, whether that be at the subway stop or at the grocery store or in the workplace.
[00:15:12] Kim Dabbs: So often I'll be confronted with these moments where people ask me, where are you really from? Or especially as, as a female and as an Asian female working in these industries too, things like, be nice. Or you should smile more and the world overtly and sometimes covertly gives us those social cues. And then we start to turn our backs on our identities.
[00:15:38] Kim Dabbs: And these are the beautiful parts of us that we can never turn our back on. And sometimes we hear things exactly like you're talking about, you're not professional enough. I've heard things like you're a diversity hire, or you speak really good English, or And those moments take a toll and, you know, that feeling of not belonging from a neuroscience perspective, it physically hurts.
[00:16:04] Kim Dabbs: Like, that feeling of exclusion shares the same neural pathways as physical pain. So, if you're walking around the workplace and you're carrying not only a busy workload or a day full of meetings, now you're doing it with unintended consequences because of the cultures that you're working in, and the weight of these experiences become heavier and heavier, and then we don't see ourselves anymore.
[00:16:31] Kim Dabbs: So, I believe that the way out of this. Is by actually going in by doing that inner work, because when we do that inner work and a lot of organizations that prioritize, understand this, that inner work is systems work, so the more that we can do this, the more that we can thrive.
[00:16:50] Sally Clarke: Kim, so much of what you're saying aligns with so much of what we do at Human Leaders and also, you know, my own personal experience of that.
[00:16:58] Sally Clarke: I can feel viscerally in my body, even as we're speaking now, the sense of self effacement that occurs when we start to behave in ways that aren't fully authentic or aligned. And I think You know, I love how you're giving language to this so we can also sometimes explore some of the discomfort because I can imagine in the situations like the meetings where we feel authentic, we feel like we're ourselves, that's a very comfortable space, uh, you know, sympathetic nervous system will probably be, you know, fine in those areas, but it's when we start to experience discomfort, when we start to get signals from our bodies and our emotions that something's not okay, being able to understand what's going on for us.
[00:17:35] Sally Clarke: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm curious, how does this enable us to change as from an individual perspective? In the moment, if we're in that meeting where we're feeling that discomfort due to what someone else has said or an expectation that we perceive, what can we do in that moment?
[00:17:49] Kim Dabbs: Yeah, I think really designing for those moments.
[00:17:54] Kim Dabbs: So we're all going to experience that at some times in our life. And I think about our lingering identity, that exploration and understanding of the questions that you'll ask yourself when you're in that moment is really critically important because you can go back and root yourself in those words and in your values.
[00:18:13] Kim Dabbs: When you design for inclusion, when you design for belonging, this is when we as organizations or we as leaders really start to prioritize culture and the needs of each of your employees in those situations. So they don't exist anymore. So people aren't confronted with those trade offs. And if we don't do that, organizations suffer, individuals suffer.
[00:18:39] Kim Dabbs: And so I hear a lot within the culture space of people designing safe spaces for employees, and I want to be really clear that, you know, a safe space is different for every single employee. What one employee needs is different than another employee and different than another employee. And that's what makes this identity work critical in building the culture of belonging.
[00:19:05] Kim Dabbs: So a lot of times within the HR space, we talk about culture fit or culture add. So what you end up doing then is really trying to curate sameness and belonging isn't sameness. And the more that we can understand that, the more that we can. design for cultures, not that people fit into or not that people actually are bunched by sameness, but it's everyone coming together with different life experiences, with different identities, with different thoughts and feelings and emotions, and being able to create spaces That humanizes that experience.
[00:19:47] Kim Dabbs: So even if you and I disagree and we can radically disagree about something, whether that be a strategy or whether that be the world that we live in, being able to do that in a way that honors and respects your identity and my identity in that conversation is critical to building safe spaces.
[00:20:07] Alexis Zahner: Kim, I just want to, for a moment, jump back to what you mentioned earlier around this idea of not belonging and how it hurts.
[00:20:14] Alexis Zahner: And you mentioned that it actually can have a response in the body and in the brain akin to physical pain. I've had it described to me by a friend as feeling like death by a thousand tiny cuts. And I'd love to know a little bit more, I guess from that workplace level as well, some of the negative impacts that we can actually see happening in a team and in an organization.
[00:20:40] Alexis Zahner: when there is a lack of belonging or the capacity to not feel like one belongs there. Can you help us unpack that a little bit?
[00:20:48] Kim Dabbs: Yeah, it's exhausting, isn't it? I think we've all experienced those tiny paper cuts in at different levels. And within different organizations, and I think about us trying to segment our human experience every single day by the audience in which we're surrounded by, and to think that those can exist separately, and they can't.
[00:21:15] Kim Dabbs: So every experience that an individual has in the workplace, also in the world, carries through their workday and how they interact and how they can engage. so much. So I think about one time when I was commuting to work and someone told me in a very real intangible way that I didn't belong there, that I didn't belong in their country, that I should leave.
[00:21:40] Kim Dabbs: And that's such a triggering moment, that's such a emotional experience to have that public and outward display of exclusion. I knew I belong and I had this moment where I could walk away and say, I know I belong here, but then what happens next? I have to go to work and I have to walk into those Doors of the workplace and I can't check that part of me or check that experience at the door So that colors what type of experience I have that morning that afternoon that day that week You And it's learning how to process those emotions and then giving space in the workplace to help have a dialogue around that experience, to not have to think that that's not part of who I am and how I show up.
[00:22:33] Kim Dabbs: And then how do we talk about that together as a team or as an organization? So when you're engaging with your employees or with your team. Really understanding that the workplace is part of them. It's not all of them. So everyone is carrying so much with them every single day. How do we start to alleviate that pain?
[00:22:55] Kim Dabbs: How do we start to make room for understanding? How do we understand that this comfort zone that we try to exist in really needs to get bumped up to that learning zone? And then within that, how do we create the rituals and norms of our teams and To have those difficult conversations, really see each other fully for all of the experiences that they walk through the door with.
[00:23:22] Sally Clarke: So beautiful, Kim. I'm curious for someone who has perhaps not experienced As many of those microaggressions or those moments, you know, as leaders, what are the key attributes or capabilities that they might need to have to really start to build that culture to hold space for those conversations?
[00:23:39] Kim Dabbs: One of the things that we do within our team in ESG and social innovation here at Steelcase is we come together once a year, like many teams do, but we come together once a year and we co design.
[00:23:55] Kim Dabbs: And we co create what our norms or rituals are going to be. And I think co creation is one of the most powerful tools that a leader can have, because then you're not designing for other people. You're designing with them. And our team is one of those special places where we can do that. So in our norms, to give people an example, it's not, Hey, we want to have a team meeting on Wednesday and we want to, Go on a field trip.
[00:24:23] Kim Dabbs: These are the things that actually guide the choices we make as a team and guide how we show up for each other. And I think it's such a powerful experience, not only to design it, but to live it. So a lot of teams will do this and they'll do this once a year and then they'll put it on a bookshelf and it won't be revisited.
[00:24:42] Kim Dabbs: So for us to practice our norms or to practice our agreements to each other, we open up every single team meeting every week. With our norms, and we just do a check in, how did these norms show up for you this week? Where did you really lean into them? Where do you need our support as a team? And this helps shape those conversations.
[00:25:04] Kim Dabbs: It opens the door to have deeper and more meaningful conversations. And as a leader, it keeps us all pointed in the same direction. So an example of some of our norms is We're accountable to the people that we serve, build with and not for, open and honest and authentic even when it's hard. We challenge ideas and systems, not people.
[00:25:30] Kim Dabbs: So these are the things that every time we come together, we can say, Oh, this was really a beautiful week. I did this collaborative workshop, or we did participatory design. And then sometimes it's a week where we say, Oof, I really challenged this person, not their ideas, and I want to do better. How would you handle this?
[00:25:53] Kim Dabbs: So we're all truly there for each other, not at a tactical level, but really at a holistic level.
[00:26:00] Alexis Zahner: Kim, I love this idea of co design and co creation around norms. As someone who's both led a team and been led by others, I have to say, as a leader, I always felt that I had people's best intentions at heart.
[00:26:16] Alexis Zahner: But prescribing things like team values and team norms is something that I got very wrong. I will be the first person to raise my hand and say that that was something that I thought that's how that needed to be, and have since learned that this idea of What people value can't be prescriptive in any way because that's conformity and not belonging.
[00:26:37] Alexis Zahner: And I'm sure I'm not the only leader in the room that could raise their hand and say, Oh, whoops, that's a bit of a mishap on my end. So I love this idea of coming together as a group and really going through that sort of storming and forming phase of, Hey, what is important to us? And what does that look like?
[00:26:54] Alexis Zahner: And how do we hold each other accountable to that? I feel like that's such a powerful first step in making sure that people are included and feel like they can be part of that process of articulating and envisioning what is important to them as a group.
[00:27:08] Kim Dabbs: Yeah. It's been one of the most powerful tools for us to stay together.
[00:27:15] Kim Dabbs: It's been one of the most powerful tools for us to also model what co creation looks like, because so often people ask what that is and we're still learning as well. So as we do these As we revisit these, there's always new and different ways that we can engage with co creation, not only in our rituals and norms, but with our work itself.
[00:27:39] Sally Clarke: I also love the frequency with it, with which you're checking in on those norms as well, Kim, because I think that's something that, like you said, there's a lot of kind of great sessions that are held, you know, if something's put on a wall or an email is sent out with a lovely PDF attached and that's it.
[00:27:54] Sally Clarke: But I think what the frequent sort of check in offers is some granularity around what's really going on and not just what's gone well, but I think also sometimes the missed opportunities and the omissions that we have, that we can kind of glean over if we don't look at it with that frequency, that honesty, and also, um, With that granularity.
[00:28:12] Sally Clarke: So I really love that there is that kind of examination each week of like what went well, but also what are the missed opportunities as well, and how we can sort of grow from that.
[00:28:21] Kim Dabbs: Yeah, I think vulnerability is a practice just like belongingness and the more that we can show up for each other in very human and vulnerable ways.
[00:28:33] Kim Dabbs: The stronger and more trusted teams and relationships we can have in the workplace. Yeah. Beautiful.
[00:28:40] Sally Clarke: Can you, we'd love to sort of also explore if possible, Kim, an example where you've seen a leader do this really well, where you've seen perhaps also some systemic change. And how a leader has sort of navigated that process and with a view to increasing a sense of belonging in a team or organization?
[00:28:59] Kim Dabbs: It's a great question. I see it in many people all over the world. I think one of the greatest experiences that I have with this book is not only really connecting to people and leaders at a human level, but seeing that there are so many brilliant leaders. All throughout the world was such a deep commitment to their teams, such a deep commitment to community, and that to me is the most inspiring thing.
[00:29:25] Kim Dabbs: So I've seen individuals really show up in beautiful ways, not only co creating the environments that their employees work in, but also co designing and co creating the communities in which we live in. And I think about this in almost. Like a fractal, so you've got me, so like that's the inner work that we just talked about.
[00:29:51] Kim Dabbs: There's the we, so I've seen that with teams, but then there's the world. And there's this African concept of Ubuntu, I am because you are, and this is something that I carry with me and I see people practice on a regular basis. One of the people that I write about in the book, Daniel, I've seen him do this so often in so many different countries throughout the world.
[00:30:17] Kim Dabbs: And Daniel Wordsworth, he actually leads an organization now called World Vision in Australia. And the work that he does not only creates and curates these experiences for the people that work for him, but also he's radically centered on the people that he serves. So when we think about co creation. And that me, we world.
[00:30:42] Kim Dabbs: So he is an individual is such a beautiful and strong leader that prioritizes belonging for himself. Does that within his organization by creating those norms and rituals for his teams, but in the community side, he radically re centers everything around the experience of those that he serves. So whether that's co creating in the field with people that have been displaced or people that are experiencing war or conflict, all the way through everyday family experiences for them and communities.
[00:31:20] Kim Dabbs: And I think those moments where everyone can come together, everyone can co create and co design and that radical lens towards service, all of those things, when they start to weave together. It's belonging at multiple levels. And I think that's where our culture starts to shift and individuals start to thrive.
[00:31:41] Alexis Zahner: I love that, Kim. And I know that through your work, you've just mentioned one of the incredible leaders you spoke to at World Vision here in Australia. And I know you've had the opportunity to speak to many incredible leaders who are really shining a light in this belonging space. I wonder, have you seen any commonalities across the board in these leaders?
[00:32:00] Alexis Zahner: Any perhaps key attributes or, or things that make them so good at this? Is it curiosity? Is it an open mindedness? What is it about them that makes them so good at doing this?
[00:32:13] Kim Dabbs: I would say yes and to all those things. Radically curious, but also radically centered on community. So the people that I find that do that inner work, that are finding.
[00:32:26] Kim Dabbs: Not only belonging within themselves, but they're also committed so deeply providing belonging to others. And I think when you have that shared understanding that I am because you are, I'm doing this inner work because it helps the entire system. I do this. I am for you to succeed. All of these moments within leaders, when you are your best, I And most authentic, that means we as an organization, we as a community.
[00:33:02] Kim Dabbs: are our best for each other. And that's the type of leadership that I think everyone craves.
[00:33:09] Sally Clarke: Absolutely, Kim. And I love that you use this word radically as well, because I feel like there's often, there's almost this kind of permitted socially sanctioned level of, you know, It's not a question of curiosity or open mindedness, but it's these leaders who can actually radically extend that in perhaps a courageous and vulnerable way and that it really lands for people.
[00:33:28] Sally Clarke: Is that, am I currently explaining what you mean by radical?
[00:33:32] Kim Dabbs: Absolutely. I think so often we think of professional should be one way and that's not the inner work and this barrier that I think is a false barrier is one that needs to be really toppled. And when we can do this. That's a concept, not transactional change, that's transformational change, and that's what makes it radical.
[00:33:56] Kim Dabbs: The leaders and the organizations that prioritize inner work, that sees individuals as whole humans, not just pieces and parts, those are the organizations that will thrive in the long term.
[00:34:10] Sally Clarke: I love that. The transformational, not transactional change, it's such a beautiful way of putting it. Now we could ask you so many more questions, Kim, and we'll share links to your incredible book in our show notes so that everyone listening can explore belonging more deeply.
[00:34:26] Sally Clarke: But for people who are listening now feeling inspired, what would you advise as a first step on their belonging journey right now?
[00:34:34] Kim Dabbs: I think carve out the time. There will always be days and hours that are too busy. And the last person we prioritize, especially those that care so deeply about others is ourselves, but we need to begin to belong to ourselves in service of caring for others.
[00:34:54] Kim Dabbs: So truly, carve out the time, spend a little bit of time every week as an individual, spend that time with your teams. build those rituals and those norms so you can create the space for everyone.
[00:35:09] Alexis Zahner: Kim, a very potent and profound message to leave us on. Thank you so much for joining us on We Are Human Leaders.
[00:35:16] Alexis Zahner: It's been an absolute pleasure to have this conversation with you. Thank you so much.
[00:35:27] Sally Clarke: Thank you for joining us for this powerful conversation today. The conversation and Kim's book have really changed my thinking around belonging and I love her insight that it is a lifelong journey. It certainly is for me. You can learn more about Kim and her work at the links in the show notes and learn more about working with human leaders at www.
[00:35:47] Sally Clarke: wearehumanleaders. com. See you next time.