Healing Your Trauma to Lead Authentically with Kelly Campbell

Kelly L Campbell (they/she) - Author, Trauma-informed Leadership Coach, Speaker

Kelly L. Campbell (they/she) speaks and writes about trauma, leadership, and consciousness—”The New TLC.”

They are the founder of Consciousness Leaders, the world’s most diverse and equitable speaker representation agency.

The author of Heal to Lead (Wiley, April 2024), Kelly is a Trauma-Informed Leadership Coach to emerging and established leaders who know they are meant for more.

How does healing your trauma help you to connect with your most authentic self?

No one is a stranger to trauma. We have a tendency to think of trauma as separate from our professional lives. And yet, unhealed trauma impacts our leadership, our teams, and our workplaces. It can harm relationships and inhibit our ability to have the impact we desire.

As leaders, it’s up to us to take responsibility to integrate and heal our trauma. To, Heal so we can really Lead. So how can we start and navigate this healing process?

What are the four fundamental aspects of moving through and integrating trauma so we can lead with vision and authenticity and match our intention with our impact?

Today we are speaking with Kelly L Campbell who writes about trauma, leadership, and consciousness. They are the author of Heal to Lead: Revolutionizing Leadership through Trauma Healing. Kelly is a Trauma-Informed Leadership Coach to emerging and established leaders who know they are meant for more. Their vision is to empower more than half of humanity to heal its childhood trauma so that we may reimagine and rebuild the world together.

This conversation is personal, deep and steeped in truth – and full of practical advice and clear guidance for your own journey to healing your trauma as a human and as a leader.

Learn more about Kelly L Campbell, and find their new book here:

Connect with Kelly L Campbell via Linkedin here.

Get your copy of Kelly’s book ‘Heal to Lead: Revolutionizing Leadership through Trauma Healing’ on their website here.

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Episode Transcript:

[00:00:00] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Thank you so much for being with us, Kelly. Welcome to We Are Human Leaders. And this is an incredibly important book that you've written. We're so excited to dive in, but we'd love to get started by getting to know you

[00:00:21] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Mm. Mm.

[00:00:23] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: story and the journey that's brought you to the incredibly important work that you're doing today.

[00:00:29] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here and to have the conversation. And, um, where do I start? Um, you know, I think of the things that I have realized writing the book and, and since, you know, um, selling my, uh, my first business, uh, that I started when I was about 22 or 23, I've realized that I came to being in that space of entrepreneurism really out of a trauma response, it was

[00:01:07] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Wow.

[00:01:07] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: wanting to recreate an environment in which I was needed and valued and that I really mattered. You don't know that when you're really young, you don't know what's going on. You don't know any of these things that are sort of. Formatting you imprinting you programming, you choose whatever word you like, and it's not, it wasn't for me. I'll just speak to my experience. It wasn't until I was out of that scenario.

[00:01:35] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: I built that business over the course of 14 years and, you know, I guess from 22 to 36, and it wasn't until I was outside of after acquisition, but I had the space and the time. And the interest, quite honestly, look at it and say, why did I want to do that? Like, sure. I'm, I'm motivated and it's inspiring and people think it's great, but why did I want to do that?

[00:02:02] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: Why was I called to do that? so all of that space really gave me the opportunity to say, Oh, I see what happened here because I didn't feel like I was getting those needs met in childhood, or I didn't feel like that was who, you know, I was being celebrated for. That's why I recreated that environment.

[00:02:21] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: And I think there are a lot of us walking around like that in the world.

[00:02:29] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Thank you so much for sharing Kelly. Yeah, we're both nodding. I think there's a lot of, it's so interesting as well. I think these are things that so often are things that we really only recognize in retrospect, when we have that opportunity to sort of step away and have some objectivity about what has gone on.

[00:05:03] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Can you tell us a little bit more about that process, Kelly? Was it something that sort of happened that you were sort of consciously engaging in to really understand how that had played out or was it a sort of a sudden realization? How did you go about that exploration?

[00:05:22] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: I wish that it was a sudden realization. I think that would have been a bit easier, but think

[00:05:28] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Mm-Hmm.

[00:05:29] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: after someone sells a business or gets acquired. A lot of people look at that as sort of the Holy Grail of why they build a business. It's to exit it or sell it at some point. And that's not why I did it. Um, pursued acquisition because I was really burnt out at 36 years old, very, very young. And so by the time all the paperwork and everything was dried, there were some questions, really existential questions that I could not answer. Who was I, what was my purpose? What was I going to do now? I had a non compete, I couldn't join another organization in a leadership role. I couldn't start another company in that same, you know, uh, sector. couldn't contact any of my clients. So it was sort of like, okay, well, all of these parameters and conditions are now on my, Work life. What does that mean for me? so I think as an entrepreneur, it's easy for us to say, okay, well, we'll just build a new thing, maybe in a different vertical. instead of doing that, will say this was the one thing I don't think it was conscious. I think it was more spiritual or intuitive. was like, Hmm, maybe it would be nice to be able to answer some of these questions first before I just start something new. I most of us don't take the time to do that. And so it felt awful, if I'm being honest, it really, for about six months, I think that there was some depression that crept in. I felt, um, even though I had just sold the company, I felt a bit worthless. I felt a bit helpless, really uncertain. And I think many of us go through things like that in our lives. It just felt, um, so insurmountable for me at the time. And to answer your question little by little and working through these questions and delving into areas that I had never really touched before, like spirituality,

[00:07:32] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Yeah.

[00:07:33] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: different brands and flavors and, and components of that. Um, It was through that self exploration and diving into some healing modalities some of this became, you know, surfaced for me and, um, yeah, so I say it was a little bit of a spiritual awakening and a little bit of a nightmare in some moments. And I think you just keep pushing through. I won't say it that way, but keep trusting there will be some answers on the other side.

[00:08:14] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: And that's, that's pretty much how it happened for me.

[00:08:18] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Thank you for sharing that Kelly. Now your new book, Heel to Lead, is just beautiful and it's also a tough read if I'm to be honest, um, you know, delving into the trauma of another person. And I'd love to, if we could Kelly, start there with just getting an understanding of how you define trauma. Um, what, what does that, what does that mean?

[00:08:38] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Mm.

[00:08:40] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: for saying that so candidly that it is a tough read. I love that. I love that you said that because it's not for the faint of heart. And that's why there are some, uh, disclaimers or some just, um, notes of awareness to say,

[00:08:54] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Mm

[00:08:55] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: these are sort of

[00:08:55] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: mm-Hmm.

[00:08:56] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: I might be talking about in the coming chapters. Go slow. If something feels a little too much for you, please take the time because you know yourself best. So I appreciate you saying that. Um, it was in some ways a difficult book to write because there were Moments that were very cathartic some of the things that you were referencing. There were a lot of stories, personal anecdotes, particularly with my mother that never made it to the book.

[00:09:32] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Mm.

[00:09:32] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: And that's a good thing. Cause it would have been too hard, right?

[00:09:35] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: There's, there's, there's this delicate balance of

[00:09:38] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Yeah.

[00:09:39] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: reading, um, the experiences,

[00:09:42] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Right?

[00:09:42] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: the traumatic, uh, traumatic experiences of another person. And then there's just being sort of overwhelmed by that. And.

[00:09:51] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Yeah.

[00:09:52] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: I had a lot of really great support throughout the process of writing the book where people were being very honest with me to say, I think it's leaning a little too far in that direction.

[00:10:01] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: Let's pull that back a little bit. And now let's reassess all of these little vignettes that appear, which are the ones that we could remove because they're not as poignant. to underscore, you know, one of the fundamentals or something else that you're trying to posit in the book. So that was a really helpful process. Um, it was over the course of about five years, really the last year, you know, is where most of the work was done, but there was a foundation that was laid, um, about five years ago. And it was, I wasn't writing my first book at that time. I was writing maybe my third book. I just didn't know it.

[00:10:39] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Mm.

[00:10:40] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: had someone actually say, this is not, there's no, your voice is not here in this original draft. So I'd like you to sort of put that to the side and consider starting all over again, which felt really daunting. And she asked me the question, which started, you know, this, this version of the book. That you've read. Which was, when is the first moment you recall stepping into a leadership role? And that became, the answer to that question

[00:11:07] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Yeah.

[00:11:09] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: to the book.

[00:11:11] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: And it's such a power, powerful introduction, Kelly, because reading it, it's mean, I, I reflected on your words and in a lot of ways relate to some of your experiences there. And when I read even just that introduction and that question, when was the first time you stepped into a leadership role? It really hit Pulled at me to reflect myself personally, because I think we define leadership is very often as a clear, formal structure in an organization.

[00:11:38] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: It's something that's very clearly defined within the boundaries of certain context. But often we forget that these behaviors can actually. for us really young when we have responsibility for others or we take on caretaking roles, um, as a younger person and in your case as a nine year old, I think it was.

[00:11:57] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: So it was a very, um, it really made me pause even at the first few pages and think, wow, I wonder when that experience actually kicked in for me as well. So I'm so glad that you went there so early in the book.

[00:12:11] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: Yeah, that was pretty important because I really wanted to drop people into understand, you know, I, I, This is not, this is a, an immersive experience. It's an experiential book, right? Where we also talk, I'll get to your question about trauma in a moment, but we talk in, in the, the trauma context of getting trauma out of your body, right?

[00:12:32] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: Which is somatic, which is embodiment. That's why I use the word embodying vulnerability for the second fundamental. Embodiment is very important. And so I couldn't talk about.

[00:12:45] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Yeah.

[00:12:45] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: dropping people directly into the backseat

[00:12:48] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Yeah,

[00:12:48] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: car when I was nine

[00:12:51] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Yeah.

[00:12:51] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: answer your question about trauma, um, I always say that if you, if you look up, if you Google trauma, you're going to find 57 different, you know, definitions online. I think that trauma is a very stigmatized word and it holds a lot of weight and a lot of, um, discomfort for people because there are so many different definitions. So the etymology of it is that it comes from the Greek word for wound. Which I think

[00:13:22] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Mm-Hmm.

[00:13:23] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: of us can understand that it's when we go any step beyond that, where it becomes a little spicy, right? So really, for me, I wanted to pull the emotion, if you will, out of the definition and, and a level of accessibility to the word. And so I didn't come up with this definition that I have in the book. Um, but the definition that I use and that I often talk about is simply unintegrated information

[00:13:56] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: mm

[00:13:57] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: to expand upon that whenever we have experiences where our nervous systems are unable to cope with a particular stressor, whether that's in a transactional or one time event or a prolonged series of events that just are too much for us to cope with. That's information that is then stored in our body, literally in our nervous system, in our tissues, in our DNA. And so, um, this idea of unintegrated information simply levels the field in a way to say, whatever you experienced, we don't even have to qualify it as big T, small T, because that's very subjective, right?

[00:14:41] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Yep.

[00:14:42] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: I could, Grow up in the same household, have the same parent or parents, sibling or siblings, and have very different experiences, very different experiences, right? And that's what I'm also sort of highlighting in the book. My brother and I had very different experiences growing up. So unintegrated information, it, I think it allows you to come into understanding trauma as something that just. In order to heal, we need to start working, doing the inner work to integrate that information. Otherwise it remains unintegrated, unprocessed, it's essentially runs our life.

[00:15:21] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: I love that definition, Kelly. 'cause it really also, I think, has another. impact in that it helps us sort of de stigmatize the notion of trauma as well. When we can see it as simply unintegrated information, it means perhaps it almost removes a little bit of a barrier to feeling like there's a judgment around it as well, that it's by definition good or bad, right or wrong.

[00:15:45] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: You know, it really kind of, I think, can help us lend a curiosity. To the experience and perhaps a willingness as well to see it, not as something that I caused in any way, or that is any way a reflection on me as an individual, but simply something that remains to be examined and, and from which we will, you know, benefit from the examination.

[00:16:06] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: And I certainly, you know, relate to that sort of from my own own experience of. Um, going through a burnout and having that sort of similar existential questions come up in my mid thirties. And, you know, I was very, I'm very grateful now today for that opportunity to have explored some of those experiences.

[00:16:24] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: And I think, you know, integrated, I'm definitely not there yet completely. There's still some information that remains unintegrated if I'm honest, but, you know, I think it's that process of really, um, instead of pushing it away, almost it's allowing ourselves to turn our minds to it, to turn our hearts to it.

[00:16:40] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: And to, to, to integrate and to heal, to lead has your book so beautifully sets out. And I'm curious, I have so many questions, I'd love to sort of explore a little bit sort of in the workplace context, if we can, how does unhealed trauma impact us as individuals and as leaders and what kind of impact can this have for us in within sort of a workplace or organizational context?

[00:17:10] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: Yeah. I do want to go back to one thing that you said,

[00:17:13] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Please do. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Uh huh. Yep. Mm. Yep.

[00:17:36] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: phraseology to accept the fact that the work will never be done. Right? Like there's no destination here, no destination, because I think back to something you said just a few minutes before that. not that trauma in comparison is good or bad or right or wrong. It's that most people have this comparative lens with which they look at their own trauma as not being as bad as other people's.

[00:18:05] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: And therefore they shouldn't feel the way that they're feeling. They shouldn't be impacted as much. Right. Well, it's not that my parents got divorced or my father was killed in a war or right. It's I didn't have it that bad. I only was humiliated when I was six at the playground. It shouldn't that that shouldn't impact me.

[00:18:27] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: Right. And so we have these stories that then get created. Only in adulthood, because the stories, the imprints are what they are when we're younger,

[00:18:38] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: yeah,

[00:18:39] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: 0 to 14, but as adults, we start learning about these things because we're curious. We, we are, you know, um, lifelong learners. We want to know more about ourselves. Um, and so. We start hearing, Oh, well, so and so had this type of trauma. That was big T trauma. Well, mine was only small T trauma, or I didn't have trauma when I was a child. So I don't know what was wrong with me. love this idea of inviting people into it's lifelong work. Let's just accept that and actually get curious, maybe even a little bit excited about the fact that we're constantly going to be learning more and more and processing and integrating. So many of the things that we've experienced, because it didn't stop, it didn't start and stop at zero and 14, right after 14, you experienced other things that you were unable to cope with. And those things are living in your body.

[00:19:36] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Um,

[00:19:37] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: yeah, it's, it's lifelong work, and some of it can be really, really beautiful.

[00:19:41] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: uh,

[00:19:43] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: painful and some of it can be very beautiful. So how does all of that impact as leaders, particularly in work environment, right? Because we can be leaders of our families and leaders in our communities and social groups and things like that. But particularly in the workplace, this shows up in a couple of different ways. If there were or experiences that Someone had during childhood where they felt powerless, those people might show up in a way where they will never feel powerless again as a leader. So they might step on other people, they might micromanage other people, they may take credit for the work that someone else has done in order to elevate their own personhood. There are so many ways in which, you know, I might call that like a people controlling leader. That's really rooted in a feeling of powerlessness, and, you know, maybe even not feeling worthy enough, not feeling valued enough. not mattering, you know, when you're younger. On the flip side of that, if we teach children when they're younger, that in order to be and worthy liked and accepted, that they have to be quiet and they have to remain small and they have to sort of just go with the flow, um, that they're not allowed to express themselves and have their own boundaries and, you know, know, push back when something doesn't feel good, then we create people pleasing leaders. And people pleasing leaders, we, most of, most women, and I'm not going to say all because there's no such thing as all, but most women are taught this just because of the sort of patriarchal society that we live in. So many women, especially in leadership roles, in emerging leadership roles, I'll say, toward people pleasing. People pleasing from an attachment style in terms of attachment theory, that could look like right? So saying yes to make sure that you're kind of keeping status quo, you're keeping the peace. So the, the archetypes for the people pleasing leaders would be things like the matriarch, um, peacekeeper, the cheerleader, um, You see these types of archetypes in leadership roles. And the issue with that is that even though people pleasing leaders tend to seem a little bit more caring, a little bit more empathetic, a little bit more kind, they're not any more effective than the people controlling leaders. And the reason why is because they have a really hard time holding people accountable. They're really, really uncomfortable with conflict. So they tend to avoid it. You know, what happens when you avoid conflict, it never gets better on its own. And so they become less trustworthy. By those that they're leading because they cannot be as reliable. That's where so many, especially women, but again, not

[00:22:59] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Mm,

[00:23:00] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: um, tend to burn out

[00:23:03] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: uh, Kelly,

[00:23:05] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: delegate, I'm not going to ask for help.

[00:23:07] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: I'm just going to do it all myself. And it's just not effective, right? Because then you really can't show up for the people that you're leading when. They need you to.

[00:23:18] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: yep.

[00:23:20] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: reflecting on my own here, I believe that, especially in my emerging and young leadership roles, that I had a tendency to people control down the chain of command and people please up. Is this, is this a thing? Can we be both? Can we kind of, can the pendulum swing depending on the context? We

[00:23:42] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: both. And I love your, your vulnerability sharing

[00:23:44] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: All

[00:23:45] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: I say in the book, I was both on any given day, it just really, it depended, I, I oscillated between both circumstance by circumstance, day by day. So yes, we can be both. Um, and I appreciate you bringing that up because this is not,

[00:24:01] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: yeah,

[00:24:04] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: I'm either a people controlling leader or I'm a people pleasing

[00:24:08] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: right.

[00:24:10] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: I, you can exhibit signs, uh, of either and both, maybe sometimes simultaneously, but interesting that you control down and pleased up, right? That makes sense because as we be, we move on the spectrum from. Emerging leader to experienced or established leader, more of your pleasing leaders are going to be younger.

[00:24:35] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: More of your controlling leaders are going to be a little bit older. So the

[00:24:38] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Mm hmm. Mm

[00:24:40] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: of dichotomy where you're downward on those who are more pleasing to pleasing of you pleasing upward. To the ones who are controlling, it makes all the sense in the world, but your level of self awareness about that is actually more fascinating to me than, you know, because a lot of people don't see it like that, you know, they're not really taking the time to reflect and pause and look at how they're showing up. And this is the sign of a conscious leader when you can take radical responsibility for. How you're showing up in these roles and how decisions that you're making behaviors that you're exhibiting are impacting other people are impacting, um, the environment, right? So it's, to me, that level of self awareness, and this is the whole point of the book is That level of self awareness can not be increased or developed unless you're doing healing work.

[00:25:42] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: and Kelly, you just mentioned this idea of the, the high conscious leader and your book really unveils to us that this is something that all of us have the capacity. innately inside us. And when we work on that, we do the healing, as you've mentioned, we can actually bring that to the fore. And there's four fundamentals within this High Conscious Leader that you mention in the book. Could we take a moment to look at what those are and unpack those a little bit, please?

[00:26:08] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: Absolutely. the, it's not by accident that the first fundamental takes up more than half of the, of the book. It's

[00:26:17] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: It's a

[00:26:17] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: a big difference. Yes, it's I mean, they they're all fundamental, right?

[00:26:22] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Yeah,

[00:26:22] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: foundation of and what I'm positing as the difference between a conscious leader and a high conscious leader is really whether or not you've done the healing work.

[00:26:31] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: And the way that I talk about that is fundamental. Number one, it's integrating trauma.

[00:26:36] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Mm.

[00:26:37] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: Now, that might sound weird, Or strange as a fundamental for leadership of any kind. But think about this, how can we lead other people? If we cannot lead ourselves, how can we trust other people? If we cannot trust ourselves,

[00:26:54] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Yep.

[00:26:55] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: to me, the fact that no one had written a book, I'm not going to say no one ever made this connection before, cause I think that would be very naive, but the fact that no one had written a book about this really mind boggling to me.

[00:27:08] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Mm.

[00:27:09] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: And so I think that it also gives you the sense of where we are in the world right now, right?

[00:27:15] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Yeah.

[00:27:16] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: are a little bit more willing to share, to be vulnerable, to talk about the fact that they're in therapy, right? And so I think this comes at a really good time. If healing our trauma and having these conversations Is part of what we think about as leadership today.

[00:27:33] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: And in the future, that's a very different world than the last, many hundreds of years, right? Where you wouldn't touch that with a 10 foot pole. And I would even say were all of that mindset for the most part, that long ago, probably right before the pandemic.

[00:27:50] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Yeah.

[00:27:51] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: And then something drastic brought us to a very different level of understanding about trauma's impact on leadership and how we show up and how it impacts us just as humans. The second fundamental, I think I mentioned before, is embodying vulnerability. So that

[00:28:11] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Mm hmm.

[00:28:11] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: of this idea that the leader has to know everything, has to have all of the answers. In fact, I would say if someone said to me, should trust me. I have all of the answers. I don't need help from anyone.

[00:28:24] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: mm

[00:28:24] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: I'm probably not going to trust that person.

[00:28:27] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Yeah.

[00:28:27] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Yeah.

[00:28:29] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: Red flags everywhere,

[00:28:31] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Mm

[00:28:32] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: this idea of you cannot be a leader and be vulnerable. You can't share that you don't know.

[00:28:38] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: mm

[00:28:39] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: can't ask for help. You know, that that's very antiquated.

[00:28:45] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: mm.

[00:28:46] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: So I thought that that was very important as a hallmark. Um, the third fundamental is, leading with compassion. the reason why I didn't choose the word empathy here, it was really purposeful. Empathy is feeling with another person, right? To really walk a mile in their shoes and understand what they're going through. But there's a bit of a deficit with empathy. And for me, the deficit is the action orientation. So compassion is feeling with, and then taking action to support. in an intelligent way, not over indexing, not people pleasing, not,

[00:29:27] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Yeah,

[00:29:27] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: I joke around, I think in, in the book, I said, you know, you're not going to take an employee who needs, let's say outpatient addiction care and use your child's college fund for, to pay for that, right?

[00:29:38] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: You're going to work within the parameters of your, the healthcare benefits that you have in the company, and you're going to get them the support that they need. So it's with intelligence, um, And strategy, you know, for what's good for the person, what's good for the business and what's good for you as the leader.

[00:29:55] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: So you're taking a lot more into consideration there. So that's leading with

[00:29:58] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Mm.

[00:29:59] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: And then the fourth fundamental is lighting the way and lighting the way for me is sort of like one of the most beautiful parts of this. It's a culmination of doing the work. vulnerability, leading with compassion and lighting the way for others, right?

[00:30:16] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: Because if you do all of this work, healing work, et cetera, you're not going to care so much about your own ego and the legacy that you might leave, right? Like you, you leaving your, um, your own mark on the world or the organization. It's going to be more about the perpetuity of the Organization of the community of the environment,

[00:30:43] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Um,

[00:30:44] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: idea of going from

[00:30:47] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Yeah,

[00:30:48] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: through a lens of self actualization versus like communal perpetuity, which is an indigenous

[00:30:56] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Uh,

[00:30:57] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: when I say innate leadership, this is what I actually mean, because it's not a becoming. A high conscious leader. It's a return to high conscious leadership. all know how to do this. It's inside of our DNA. It's inside of us, our souls, our hearts, whatever you want to call it. So it's returning back to what is actually important here. It's not about me. It's about what am I contributing to the larger picture here? Um, so that, you know, it was like, here are all of my values in a book. And for the people who also believe in the same things, this is a great blueprint for the people who don't. There are lots of other books to read.

[00:31:44] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: I love it. Kelly. It certainly resonated for both Alexis and myself, and I think partly because so much of the way you frame things and how you talk about it really just resonates with human leadership and how we talk about, you know, we are human first and leaders second. And so much of the, the work of being a great leadership is really peeling back layers and coming back.

[00:32:07] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: To the leader that we inherently are rather than the leader that we have been told we should be in these models that have been painted through history as you know, the way it should look, um, often very colored or often very patriarchal. So we, I think there's, you know, it's such an incredible blueprint that you offer and I think there's.

[00:32:28] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Uh, you know, there's so much for leaders to, to unpack through going through your book and sort of seeing these different aspects of it. And it really, I have to share sort of this, this experience. I think that I had reading your book really reminded me of this feeling that I had when I was going through some of those existential questions after my burnout.

[00:32:47] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: And there was this kind of. Uh, simultaneous feeling of feeling terrified because I knew something really drastic had to change. The way I'd been living wasn't authentic and, and the way I'd been leading hadn't been authentic. And it came with also a deep sense of relief because I knew I was shifting to something that was truer.

[00:33:06] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: And I really had that sort of that sensation come back when I was reading your book because it's that feeling of, you know, This is scary because it's a, it's a shift away from what we've known as a society that kind of the narrative that has really dominated leadership for so long. And yet, because it's true and it resonates and it makes sense, it's, there's a relief about it as well.

[00:33:28] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: I don't have to pretend any longer to be anything in the authentic leader that I actually am.

[00:33:35] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: Yeah, yeah. I love that you say that. And I love that it was a visceral response for you. There was a remembering, right? I think it was the last part of the book I called The Great Remembering. Because that's

[00:33:46] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Mm.

[00:33:48] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: Where we veered off course, right? If everything was always supposed to be about, um, That communal perpetuity, that cultural perpetuity that I'm talking about and supporting one another and connection and right.

[00:34:02] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: We as humans, we thrive in communal spaces. We die in isolation.

[00:34:10] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Mm.

[00:34:10] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Yeah.

[00:34:11] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: of hundreds of years ago. there were sort of the, the elite one or 2 percent and everyone else was going, there was this big chasm that was going to be created and resources were going to be extracted from the earth. And it's like, we got so off course, And we called that leadership.

[00:34:32] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Mm.

[00:34:33] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: I have a huge, huge bone to pick with that. And that's partly what this book is about. It's sort of saying, okay, we need like, you know, revolutionizing leadership. Where do we start? I think we have to start with ourselves because ourselves is where the problem started in the beginning. So we, he, we start to heal that. We start to wake up to all of the harm that we've created and the ways in which we can undo that. Right. Okay. Restore that, um, that feels like the best way forward, which really, if you think about it, it's, it's indigeneity. That's what this comes down to.

[00:35:14] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Yeah.

[00:35:14] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: to what this, these wise ways that we have discarded, um, that connection to nature, that all of it, all of it.

[00:35:23] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Yeah.

[00:35:23] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: So, yeah, I mean, we could talk about this for hours and hours and hours.

[00:35:27] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: We

[00:35:28] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Totally. Mmm.

[00:35:33] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: what I love about this is, again, when I was reading your book, I was really relating to the archetypes. I wasn't sure if I was sitting more on the hero or the martyr. Again, it kind of, it swings between the two, but what I noticed is my strong call to legacy, which is a real ego driven place for me.

[00:35:50] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: It's. It has historically been less about what does the community to the collective need and what is my contribution and active service to that in the long run versus a more, how do I want to be remembered type place, which I think is a natural preservation, like self preservation mindset for many of us, but, you know, through doing some of that work myself, I've, I've realized that there's almost this transcendental nature of doing it for the greater good. And when you can witness your ego, which is, by the way, still comes up every day and a very natural thing. I'm, I'm, I doubt I'll ever fully be rid of that drive of like, well, what do I want to leave in the world from that perspective? I think when you can shift to that of how, what contribution will this make to the future of the world to, to everyone around me, there's almost a real liberation in that as well.

[00:36:46] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: I feel freer to do what I feel called to do you. Because it comes from a place of service, versus it comes from a place of my ego is telling me to be remembered for this.

[00:36:56] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: Yeah, yeah. It's funny because the, um, the last, what you just said reminded me of like why I wrote the last, the line, the very last line of the book, which is,

[00:37:08] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Yeah.

[00:37:08] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: road is long, yet we are far from alone. We will walk it with brave hearts, hand in hand, until every wound is healed and every soul is free. That's what it's about. It's that freedom. It's that liberation that you're describing right there.

[00:37:22] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: yeah. Yeah, I love that so much. It almost makes me emotional, Kelly. It's um, it's just such a beautiful way of looking at the importance of healing ourselves and also the permission that that gives to those around us to do the same, which I think is a beautiful part of that service that we have to the world around us, is actually healing ourselves gives others the space and permission to do the same.

[00:37:47] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: Yeah, the only change that I would make in the book is instead of using the word permission about that, I would use the word invitation because that feels, that feels more true to me now. Um, and as I'm, you know, having podcasts and interviews and things like that,

[00:38:08] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Yeah.

[00:38:09] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: doesn't quite land for me. And the book is coming out.

[00:38:13] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: It's not even out yet, right? It's coming out in a couple of weeks. Um, 25, 000 copies later, but yeah, so, so it feels like that's one of the things that I would change is that it's you doing the work for you benefits you for sure. And if you do it for you, initially, I have no issue with that and it will benefit other people.

[00:38:41] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: And you do invite other people to show up differently.

[00:38:44] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Mm.

[00:38:45] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: they just will show up differently. They may not understand how or

[00:38:49] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Totally.

[00:38:49] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Mm.

[00:38:50] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: Right. But they will show up differently.

[00:38:53] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Mm. Yep.

[00:38:54] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: I really appreciate that. And I think, you know, part of the, the mark of a really good, successful book is that it makes people emotional. So I appreciate it brought some emotion up for you.

[00:39:11] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: I think it's, there's so much, um, for all of us to learn from the book. And I think particularly what's coming up for me now is this sense of sort of the power of vulnerability of that sort of invitation that it creates through the process of the hard work of You know, and there's so many, it's so much judgment around words as well.

[00:39:29] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Cause it's like, when I'm like hard work, I'm like, it's hard because it's challenging and it's, and it's unprecedented. And it's perhaps we're the first generation in our family line that's doing these things yet. It's so rewarding. And there's that sort of almost immediate sense of. That through it, we become freer in our own behaviors, in our own leadership, in how we are in day to day interactions.

[00:39:54] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: And I think that's such a beautiful outcome, uh, you know, potential outcome of starting to integrate our trauma. Now we had a question sort of around, you know, can you give an example of a leader, but I'd really actually love if we, if you're okay with this to sort of talk about your own leadership and how the process of.

[00:40:15] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Healing your trauma has impacted your leadership, what that's meant and how you see yourself differently as a leader in that context.

[00:40:24] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: Hmm. I really appreciate this question. I don't know that I'm going to get it that often. Um, I think when I owned the agency, I, we talked about, um, before Lexus that I sort of oscillated between this people controlling and people pleasing, and then like very lovely at certain points too, right? I cared about my team.

[00:40:47] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: I cared about our clients that I don't think was, was ever in question how I

[00:40:52] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Mm.

[00:40:53] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: running that company. There was the nine year old running the show for some of those days. I mean, over the course of 14 years, yeah, in total, she probably ran the show for an entire year if we tallied it up, I think it was really difficult for me to show, or I shouldn't say it was difficult.

[00:41:14] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: It was, um, I didn't think it was okay to show emotion at all as the leader. I didn't create, and this was all in retrospect, I didn't know any of this at the time. I wanted to create psychological safety in the environment. I wanted to throw out a question and have lots and lots of, you know, collaboration and innovation and answers. And I had a little bit of that. I did. But more often than not, I lacked the self awareness to not throw my oriented response into the middle, like a little bomb, and then ask people to respond to that. No one's going to feel safe to respond to that. I could be the nicest person in the world, no one's going to feel safe to do that.

[00:42:04] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: I

[00:42:05] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: So there were lots and lots of ways that as a leader, I quote unquote could have done a better job. And I was using that organization as a healing lab. Let's call it a learning lab and like a healing modality. I just didn't know it. It was, um, probably the most expensive 14 years of therapy I ever had.

[00:42:33] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: feel that.

[00:42:34] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: And I'm really grateful for my team. You know, I'm really grateful for my team because in all the moments that I got it right, and more so in all the moments that I got it wrong, of them felt that they could tell me.

[00:42:49] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Mm

[00:42:50] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: And some of them, the way that they told me was that they left,

[00:42:54] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: mm

[00:42:55] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: right. I don't want to be working in this environment anymore.

[00:42:58] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: I'm going to go seek, you know, employment elsewhere. That's really helpful as a leader to know when there's attrition happening,

[00:43:07] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Yeah.

[00:43:08] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: is my responsibility here? Right. I think in juxtaposition to that. And again, that was a long time ago because I sold the company eight years ago and, you know, have been. Coaching, uh, almost ever since. I think now I have a much smaller team, just a handful of people. And the way that I show up is very different. It's much more vulnerable. I feel just fine if I'm on a call and some emotion comes up, whether I'm

[00:43:41] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Yeah.

[00:43:42] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: something and it's beautiful emotion, or I'm sad about something and emotion comes up, I don't try to mask it.

[00:43:48] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: I want to invite the people that are working with me to do the same.

[00:43:54] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm.

[00:43:56] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: I have a much easier time delegating, right? I don't feel like I have to take it all on because I love myself too much to do that again. I didn't love myself back then. Sometimes I will say that, um, you know, delegating is an act of self care and grieving is an act of self love. I didn't know how to do either of those back then.

[00:44:23] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: mm

[00:44:24] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Wow.

[00:44:24] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: So through all of these years and different modalities of healing and trauma integration, um, I think it's given me, a very different perspective and a totally different capacity and set of tools as a leader. I would feel pretty comfortable saying that there are very few people in the world who, if I was sort of the leader of the organization that they were a part of, I think that there would be very few people who would not be happy about that. And I don't mean that in a self aggrandizing way. I just, it's, I feel confident enough. In my leadership style now that I can say that.

[00:45:11] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: mm

[00:45:12] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: Yeah. Um, and I've also seen a ton of people do it wrong, right?

[00:45:18] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Yeah.

[00:45:18] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: it in a way I shouldn't say wrong. Do it in a way where they're still operating from a very wounded place.

[00:45:24] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Yep.

[00:45:24] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: it's very obvious to me.

[00:45:26] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Mm.

[00:45:26] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: becomes very obvious. Um, but yeah, for me, it's, it's coaching the individual leaders that gives me such great joy. Because I get to see their transformation,

[00:45:39] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Mm.

[00:45:40] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: know, sometimes they'll ask, well, how would you deal with this? And it's like, well, I, but I'm not you, right? Like you actually know the answer here.

[00:45:48] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Yeah.

[00:45:48] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: just going to ask you a series of questions to empower you to get to that answer that is innate inside of you. And that can be frustrating to some people, but that's the work,

[00:45:58] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Mm.

[00:45:58] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: If you wanted someone to give you answers, you should have hired a consultant, not a coach.

[00:46:04] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: And Kelly, what I love about what you've said is seems to me in your experience there were these fairly clear organizational outcomes that were acting as markers now when you look at it through hindsight. That indicated that there was some healing to be done on behalf of the leader at the time, which was yourself.

[00:46:22] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: You mentioned, um, at the company, um, perhaps the absence of psychological safety. And, you know, I interestingly had a very similar experience in one of my leadership roles where, how I wanted to show up and, and how I wanted to lead the team and the behaviors I did that I thought we're going to bring that about, weren't actually creating that.

[00:46:44] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Um, can't help but think that when we look at, you know, this occurring time and time again really far down the track is perhaps where we end up in toxic cultures where my wounds and my behavior then triggering that of other people and none of us therefore are in a safe space to act from that innate higher self and instead we're in this reactive state just responding to the world around us trying to keep ourselves safe.

[00:47:08] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Safe. Is that something that you've seen play out in organizations as an outcome of, of a multitude of people with unhealed trauma?

[00:47:16] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That's why I advocate for, I mean, I'm a trauma informed leadership coach, and I advocate for trauma informed leaders. Um, work environments,

[00:47:26] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Mm,

[00:47:26] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Mm

[00:47:27] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: um, Carolyn Suara has a great book, uh, called Evolve and it's all about the trauma informed leader. I do believe that trauma informed leadership and trauma informed workplaces, well outside of just the healthcare sector where that's been, you know, in the vernacular for a long time, that is the future. That is the future because as we become more aware of our own trauma, our own unintegrated information, how this impacts other people, what theirs might be, how theirs might be activated. You can start to see that if we to have these conversations and we started to understand where people were coming from and what was going to be helpful in supporting Their optimal function, let's call it that would directly impact the bottom line.

[00:48:18] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: yep.

[00:48:19] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: so for the people who only care about the bottom line, we're handing it to you on a silver platter. We're only asking you to actually take it seriously, right? Because I, there's a lot of eye rolling in, well, how is this woo woo stuff going to actually make me money? wrote a whole book about it. Read it.

[00:48:40] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: The blueprint

[00:48:41] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: Not really. I mean, that's what it is. A

[00:48:43] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Yeah.

[00:48:43] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: What's the ROI on trauma informed leadership? You know, profitability is a lagging indicator. And trust me, if you have a trauma informed leader or a, uh, let me even, I won't even say that a leader who has been doing their healing work and their trauma integration work, and then you have, you really into and, um, sort of implement a trauma informed and encourage a trauma informed work environment. Your lagging indicator of profitability, or if you're a nonprofit revenue, um, is going to be exponentially greater. It's just the way that it is because now you're really leaning into the people doing the work. Right. The people who are doing the work at your organization, if you support them, they support the customers or clients. That's what generates, like, it's not hard. You don't even

[00:49:37] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: No.

[00:49:38] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: a economics degree. This is not difficult. This is

[00:49:43] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: And it's, it's,

[00:49:43] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: and this is, yeah, exactly what you're talking about.

[00:49:47] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: and I think it's wonderful that there's now so much data to support these things that, you know, the sort of the hippie that I am have felt sort of intuitively for so, for so long. And it's actually now decades already of evidence in various sort of, you know, Different ways of showing that this work is actually directly leads to better outcomes, you know, performance and profitability as well.

[00:50:09] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: So I love that you highlighted that. And, you know, I think it's, I can imagine there's a lot of people listening who are potentially having a bit of an aha moment right now who are thinking, who realizing that perhaps there is some unintegrated information that they. Perhaps are ready to start to, to look at, of course, we highly recommend picking up your book as a starting point, but are there any other things, Kelly, that you would say to those people listening right now who are thinking, I, I would like to actually start to explore this more and to, to, as a leader, uh, you know, become more trauma informed.

[00:50:44] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: How would they start to go about that?

[00:50:46] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: Yeah, I think for specifically for the folks who have never had even so much as a conversation with a therapist, a great, like, go talk to someone, go, go speak to a mental health professional. Um, I think we're at the point now where that, you know, listen, in some work environments, there's still stigma.

[00:51:09] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: In some families, there's still stigma around that.

[00:51:11] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Sure.

[00:51:12] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: large, I think Talking about and going to see a therapist is, is something that, um, would be a great first step. If someone has already been in therapy, and maybe they're not having the leadership impact conversation. I think that might be a marker for working with, you know, a type of coach.

[00:51:35] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: It could be a trauma informed leadership coach. It could be a shadow work coach.

[00:51:40] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Mm hmm.

[00:51:41] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: be doing that kind of work on an individual level, but knowing that it's, you know, we don't, we don't operate in silos. We're not working on, you know, this half of us therapy and the other half of us in the, in executive coaching.

[00:51:54] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Mm

[00:51:55] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: bringing in more support. Getting curious is my, my favorite answer to this. Getting curious and taking some kind of action, right? In the book, I talk about this online resource, uh, called my healing menu. com. It's not, I wouldn't even call it, um, a recommendation list. I think it's more of a library different types of tools and practices and modalities. All different resources that people can look to and look through see what calls to me. You know what? If I've gone and maybe I've done, I've been in therapy for, let's say, 5 years. I tried Reiki once. don't know what else is out there, right? Maybe this isn't a conversation in the spheres that you run in. That's all I talk

[00:52:46] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: hmm.

[00:52:46] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: version I run in, but that's not the norm for most people. Right. So getting on there and digging in a little bit, we're going to be adding new modalities and new resources to that probably

[00:52:57] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Mm.

[00:52:58] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: And I hope that this becomes just like a living, breathing, ever expanding library, because there's nothing else like that, that That is online. And, um, I think when I discovered that, I was like, wait, how is that possible? Uh, so I think those are a couple of great starting points, depending upon where you are in your healing journey.

[00:53:21] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Amazing Kelly. I think that,

[00:53:23] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Yeah.

[00:53:25] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: yeah, it's just a really sort of powerful tip. Sorry. And I, I just kind of think that there's so much effort that goes into avoiding this work. I think we underestimate that as well, that when we're running from these issues and pretending they're not there and we think there's no cost, there's an immense cost.

[00:53:41] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: So being able to almost redirect that energy into Integration is such a powerful move. And I love that he also spoke to the, the sort of the collective and communal impact of that. Thank you so much for sharing.

[00:53:56] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: Yeah. Thank you so much. I love this conversation. Um, and the last thing that I'll say is I think you're right about the avoidance in terms of, um, what to do about that. I say double down,

[00:54:10] sally-clarke--she-her-_1_04-03-2024_210303: Hmm.

[00:54:11] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: down on it. Like double down, meaning go in the opposite direction.

[00:54:15] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Hmm.

[00:54:16] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: around if you're, if you're avoiding it, if it's like, Oh, I know some things happened to me when I was younger.

[00:54:21] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: I don't want to unlock that. I don't want to unpack that. Literally pause and ask yourself the question. five years from now, your life and your work and everything was exactly the way that it was today, would that be okay with you? What is the impact of you not doing this work, of you not running headfirst into unpacking and healing, what is holding you back?

[00:54:47] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: What is keeping you in this stuck, stagnant position? those would be some of the questions that I would ask. And hopefully more than half of the people who are listening and asking themselves that question will do exactly that. They'll take that action.

[00:55:04] alexis-zahner--she-her-_1_04-04-2024_060303: Such a profound and very encouraging question, Kelly. Certainly in my experience, I know being asked that question was exactly the moment I turned and ran in the opposite direction toward the hard work. So thank you so much. It's been an absolute privilege to have you with us on We Are Human Leaders, and we can't wait for your book, Heel to Lead, to be released to the world. It's so important, and 2024 we can have this conversation.

[00:55:30] kelly-campbell--they-she-_1_04-03-2024_150302: Thank you, Alexis. Thank you, Sally.