You Only Die Once: How to Live a Squander-Free Life with Jodi Wellman
Jodi Wellman - Author, University Instructor and Professional Certified Coach
Jodi Wellman is a former corporate executive turned executive coach. She has a Master’s in Applied Positive Psychology from the University of Pennsylvania, where she is an instructor in the Master’s program and a trainer in the world-renowned Penn Resilience Program. She is a Professional Certified Coach with the ICF and a Certified Professional Co-Active Coach from CTI. Jodi is the author of the new book You Only Die Once: How to Make It to the End With No Regrets.
She has coached and spoken with clients like American Express, Fidelity, PWC, Royal Bank of Canada, BMW, and more, and runs her own business, Four Thousand Mondays. She lives between Palm Springs and Chicago with her husband and cat, Andy. You can watch her inspirational TEDx Talk on how death can bring you back to life.
It’s an undeniable truth that you only die once. And yet as today’s guest explores with us, many of us are already living like the un-dead. Each day passes by with a distinct lack of meaning and vitality.
So how can Memento Mori - remembering we must die - actually make our lives better?
In this conversation we explore the very real reality that we'll all die someday in the future with speaker and Author Jodi Wellman.
Although a seemingly morbid concept, Jodi implores us to view our imminent death as a motivator to live our best life, one that’s wide with vitality and deep with meaning, every single day. And in this conversation she’ll help us understand how.
This conversation was deeply personal for us, for various reasons as we explore in the conversation with Jodi, and it’s one that we hope will inspire you to look differently at your work, leadership and life decisions!
Learn more about Jodi Wellman, and find her new book here:
Connect with Jodi Wellman on LinkedIn.
Get your copy of their book ‘You Only Die Once: How to Make It to the End with No Regrets’ here.
Episode Transcript:
[00:00:00] Alexis Zahner: It's an undeniable truth that you only die once. And yet, as today's guest explores with us, many of us are already living like the undead, each day passing by with a distinct lack of meaning and vitality. So how can memento mori, that is, remembering we must die, actually make our lives better? Welcome to We Are Human Leaders.
[00:00:32] Alexis Zahner: I'm Alexa Zahner, and in this conversation, Sally Clark and I explore the very real reality that we'll all die someday in the future with speaker and author Jodie Wellman. Although a seemingly morbid concept, Jodie implores us to view our imminent death as a motivator to live our best life. One that's wired with vitality and deep with meaning.
[00:00:58] Alexis Zahner: Every single day. And in this conversation, she'll help us understand how to do that. Jody Wellman is a former corporate executive turned executive coach. She has a master's in applied positive psychology from the university of Pennsylvania. where she is an instructor in the master's program and a trainer in the world renowned Penn Resilience Program.
[00:01:21] Alexis Zahner: She is a professional certified coach with the ICF and a certified professional co active coach from CTI. Jodi is the author of the new book, You Only Die Once. How to make it to the end with no regrets. She has coached and spoken with clients like American Express, the Royal Bank of Canada, BMW, and many, many more, and runs her own business, 4, 000 Mondays.
[00:01:51] Alexis Zahner: She lives between Palm Springs and Chicago with her husband and cat, Andy, and you can watch her inspirational TEDx YouTube channel. On how death can bring you back to life. This conversation was deeply personal for Sally and myself for various reasons that we explore together in the conversation with Jodie.
[00:02:10] Alexis Zahner: And it's one that we hope will inspire you to look differently at your work, your leadership and your life decisions. We're excited for you to hear this conversation. Now let's dive in.
[00:02:25] Sally Clarke: Welcome to We Are Human Leaders, Jodi. We are thrilled to have you with us today, and we'd love to start by getting to know you a little bit better and to learn a bit about the journey that's brought you to the incredible work that you're doing today.
[00:02:38] Jodi Wellman: Oh, well, hey, I'm happy to share. And thanks for having me here. I'm excited to get to chat with you guys and, or yeah, per your question about. The journey, so to speak, you know, it kind of feels funny, like, surely I'm not the only one that's found it bizarre in this world, this life, that we're trying so hard to like and love our lives, and then all of a sudden, poof, we're all gonna die.
[00:02:57] Jodi Wellman: Like, doesn't that just, I mean, it's such a bizarre fact that most of us have done a decent job of denying and just avoiding, because otherwise, you know, our days might be a little more stressful than they already are. But I've always found that to be so absurd, but I didn't do much with it early on, and then some formative stuff would have gone on, like, My mom died when she was in her late fifties of a heart attack.
[00:03:17] Jodi Wellman: And that, it's funny because even when I say that, it's like, Oh, that should just be, Oh, grief was a lesson and it wasn't good. But the impact for me was her passing was so obvious to me that she died with all these dreams inside of her. And like all these hopes and plans and like she had business plans galore.
[00:03:36] Jodi Wellman: She had manuscripts. She had all these dreams that just died with her. And then like I got to clean up her stuff after and it was so sad going through all of her drawers. And I think it woke me up because I, probably the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Like I was like, Oh, wait a minute. I could technically.
[00:03:52] Jodi Wellman: die, hopefully not early, but I will have a lot of dreams left inside me too, because it takes courage to go forward with a dream. And I realized, oh, I think I might be busted. And then that really woke in me what sounds lousy, which is like a fear. Like my biggest fear would be the regrets I would have on my deathbed.
[00:04:08] Jodi Wellman: that I know she had. And so anyway, that really was the behind the scenes stuff about, Oh, we got to get on with it. Like we got to just stop caring less about what people think, or just like muster up the courage, do whatever we have to do because man, life's short and wouldn't it just be so crappy to get to the end with that feeling of like, the coulda shoulda wouldas.
[00:04:25] Alexis Zahner: Yeah, totally resonate with that, Jodie. And in a similar formative experience in my life as well, having lost a parent at about 21 years old in his mid fifties, I fully resonate with this sort of overwhelming feeling of urgency, like, Oh my gosh, time is not infinite. We need to crack on with things. So I had a similar awakening moment as well.
[00:04:44] Alexis Zahner: Well
[00:04:44] Jodi Wellman: that,
[00:04:44] Alexis Zahner: I guess in a
[00:04:45] Jodi Wellman: way, I'm not just trying to put a pretty little bow on a crappy package, but there is something that can be useful about. Experiencing death early, right? Like, unless it creates that sense of urgency which we know can tip over into like, oh, anxiety about, oh, never enough time and, oh, you know, we can manage that with a little bit of wine and, you know, maybe some therapy.
[00:05:03] Jodi Wellman: But I think otherwise it's like, oh, we get the gift of being rattled, right? To be like, this is not gonna be a thing that everyone's gonna live till they're in the rocking chair in their 80s and 90s and 100s. It's like, what if? You know, and even if we didn't get to live that long, don't we want to do the life justice that we get to live by enjoying it in the ways that maybe we fathomed and dreamed?
[00:05:21] Jodi Wellman: And so that to me felt really exciting. And then I studied it in grad school when I went to school for positive psychology at the University of Pennsylvania. And I made this my thesis. And then I got to say, well, now there's no turning back. Like I got to make this my life. And so that's where it's been.
[00:05:35] Jodi Wellman: And I just love the idea about getting to, I don't know, scream from the mountaintops, like wake up and live.
[00:05:40] Sally Clarke: I love it so much, Judy, and I think like your book is so beautiful in this kind of almost like relationship that you draw us into with the Grim Reaper, like this kind of confrontation, which is so unconventional in our society and yet so resonant.
[00:05:52] Sally Clarke: I think, you know, a different experience. But after my burnout about 14 years ago, I had the very conscious thought, I want to
[00:06:01] Sally Clarke: I'm good. You don't have to mourn me. Like it's been great. And I think that kind of, as a bit of a North star has been really important. And I love that reading your book really, you know, reminded me of that and brought me back closer to a lot of the reflections and practices that can draw us towards that experience.
[00:06:17] Jodi Wellman: Oh, and I love your. relating to it in the way that it helps you frame. Like, am I living a life? Like you said, I'm good. Another friend of mine talks about it. Am I good to go? You know, I'm a little more literal, but same idea. And like, did I, you know, and I think depending how you look at it, which is kind of funny, your example to me of many people look at this as, okay, now there's pressure.
[00:06:36] Jodi Wellman: I've got to do all these things before I die. I've got to cross everything off my bucket list, which on one hand sounds delightful, but on the other hand, it also sounds exhausting maybe. And like, I don't know, I don't want to add to the stress. But at the same time, you said you talk, you found that after burnout.
[00:06:49] Jodi Wellman: So even with burnout, which is usually like, let me just go comatose for like three and a half years. Maybe you did, but like, can I, but you had this notion of like wanting to still feel like he sees the day and what, and I'm curious for you about how burnout related to that.
[00:07:05] Sally Clarke: Yeah. I think it's kind of similar in a lot of ways to the, you know, the concept of post traumatic growth that we can experience.
[00:07:10] Sally Clarke: And so it's not that you don't avoid. The hard work, the actual, you know, dealing with, you know, each of you've been through these incredibly challenging forms of grief, you don't circumvent that you go through it, but as a result of going through that, there is, you know, for a lot of people, there is that growth possible.
[00:07:26] Sally Clarke: And I think that's kind of that insight into Carpe Diem, if you will, was kind of the part of the growth for me.
[00:07:32] Jodi Wellman: Mm. Mm. Well said. Love that.
[00:07:34] Alexis Zahner: Now, Jodie, another terminology that you use a lot in your book is this idea of living the squander free life. Can you tell us a little bit more about what exactly this means?
[00:07:44] Jodi Wellman: Oh, sure. And I say this because I come by this, honestly, where I have tendencies to squander. So it's like, you know, when you, the feeling you get when you have like wasted time and not according to other people's judgments, because, oh, they're traveling and you see them on Instagram and they're doing all these things, not comparison, but when we know deep down, we're like, Oh, like, I really feel like I squandered, I wasted this weekend or, you know, the summer where you're like, Oh my gosh, it just flew by.
[00:08:08] Jodi Wellman: And I don't really even feel like I did. Did much. I don't have anything to show for it. Like all I did was work or I don't know. I mean, believe me, I am a fan of the television. I will watch all the shows and all the movies. I love it. But I also know that sometimes there's that tipping over into the scale of oops.
[00:08:22] Jodi Wellman: Now I've become a bit of a zombie and maybe even an autopilot with routines that we have or like the low engagement activities that don't really fill us up. And I want to just be clear to differentiate because I've noticed that I think there can be confusion. Because sometimes it's not squandering.
[00:08:38] Jodi Wellman: I'm going to call it like fabulous, gluttonous, slothful relaxation. Could be just what the doctor ordered. Like, you know how sometimes you just like a post burnout or like you've had a really crazy day or week or who cares, but you just feel like I need to be horizontal. I'm going to order in my food and I'm going to have like a movie marathon in bed or like, or whatever your version of like, just not doing, not going and doing all the things.
[00:08:59] Jodi Wellman: Oh God, like that sounds great. Like that might be your version of living your. Best way to be alive right now for this weekend or for this week or take a lower, slower break. Very different though from that niggling feeling we get, which is, Oh, like I wasn't really awake. Like I wasn't intentional. I didn't stop and say, Is this the soul filling thing that'll make me feel kind of good about the weekend?
[00:09:18] Jodi Wellman: Like, yeah, some, I had some rest and some slot, like some slothery, but. Now I also feel good that I went for a really neat walk in nature or I feel like I went to that new restaurant and I was kind of like, Ooh, I tried a new thing. And that might feel like you got out and did a thing. So it's being aware, it's being awake, it's plugging in in the right amount for you.
[00:09:36] Alexis Zahner: I'm really glad you touched on the difference here, Jodi, between squander free and rest, because as someone who has a tendency to be Always on and wanting to feel like they're always productive. This is really really hard for me to tell the difference. I feel like if I sit on the couch and read a book for half an hour, there's that internal guilt that oh my gosh I should be doing something.
[00:09:55] Alexis Zahner: I should be writing the manuscript or answering the emails or going for a run. That's Stillness and slowness is actually the antithesis of that. So I'm really glad that you pointed out the difference there. Uh, well, thanks
[00:10:09] Jodi Wellman: for you highlighting that there is the other end of the spectrum, right? Cause I tend to default more towards the feeling about like lack of engaging in life, but you're so super right.
[00:10:17] Jodi Wellman: And by the way, I identify with both ends of the spectrum to like, uh, relaxation and I, but also that like, am I being productive enough? And I don't know about you, but I found that. It sounds really boring, but coming up with almost like my operating manual that needs to change like every month or two, because you know, like life changes, we change our goals, change the weather changes.
[00:10:37] Jodi Wellman: And like, you know, I kind of be like, this for me is my prescription about like what feels good and like soul filling to work. And it might be more than some people might be less again, who cares about those other freaking people. And like, I know that I, for me, the right amount of rest or like the defined rest.
[00:10:51] Jodi Wellman: Like rest could mean different things, right? It could mean, you might even think if you're super productive going for a walk is, and is also a faux pas because it means you're not writing the manuscript. But maybe like that's your restorative rest or like, I find like giving herself permission in advance and acknowledging, Oh, this is actually required to be alive and it makes me more alive if I take this revitalizing rest, even if I am kind of stressed while I'm doing it, we'll, we'll adapt.
[00:11:16] Alexis Zahner: Yeah, totally my experience. And I think it's that attunement to what your brain and body and emotions are telling you. And I think for me, it has to be that intentionality of, look, what am I feeling? If I'm feeling knackered, just lie down for half an hour. If I'm feeling like I have energy, then use that energy in something that's calling to me that day.
[00:11:33] Alexis Zahner: So I think there requires that intentionality. And as you said, you know, there's Paying attention on purpose.
[00:11:39] Jodi Wellman: Oh, I like your word attunement. I've always loved that word. And I feel like the way I talk about it too is this, like, taking your pulse. Like, cause, and to be literal, like, sometimes we take our pulse and we're like, there ain't no pulse.
[00:11:48] Jodi Wellman: I'm dead. Or sometimes it's like, Oh, it's racing and I need to calm down. Or it's racing and I'm so electrically alive that like more of this intensity, but knowing, and like, we don't stop, do we? It's like one of the most basic things, but just doing that. Okay, honey bunny, take a quick sec. Like really, really do this assessment.
[00:12:06] Jodi Wellman: And that's why in the beginning of the book is like this pre mortem. It's like kind of a where you are in your life right now. You know, 9, 089 questions about like, what's working? What's not? What makes you feel alive? What kind of deadens you? What excites you? What puts you into that state of flow? Like, I don't know.
[00:12:20] Jodi Wellman: I feel like we kind of, it's so easy to lose touch with ourselves.
[00:12:23] Sally Clarke: It's so beautifully put and I think you're encapsulating this sort of, you know, knowing ourselves really well, bringing some compassion to the piece, but also something that I think a lot of us struggle with is this connection with our physical body and this, the signals that we're getting, because, you know, there's the brain just for, I think for Alexis and I both often our brains just want to kind of override those signals.
[00:12:41] Sally Clarke: And it's like, you know, maybe our body is saying be horizontal, but our brain's like, but we could extract more from the day. Like, Push on. And I think it's that really becoming attuned to signals and also acting on them, which is kind of counter cultural. I think in our societies at the moment, there's so much pressure to be productive.
[00:12:58] Sally Clarke: There's so much pressure to always be doing more, you know, being more. And I think it's takes a little bit of fierceness as well for us to really prioritize those signals and acting on them as well.
[00:13:08] Jodi Wellman: That fierceness I think is a good way to put it too. And I think like we have to like recalibrate like where we're supposed to celebrate.
[00:13:13] Jodi Wellman: Because if we're all we're talking about, and believe me, I love the idea about getting some good check marks on a to do list and making progress and it all feels really good. And if I'm not putting equal weight or even at least giving myself some pat on the back credit for the, wow, like good for me.
[00:13:27] Jodi Wellman: I'm the kind of person who made time and go to go and do the art class. You know, we're like, good for me. I'm the kind of person who shows herself that she's worth it to live a well rounded life to go for that walk or to go and plan that happy hour that, you know, started at 3 p. m. Like, the nerve. Well, I actually, I think happy hour is allowed any time of day, but that we're like to learn to celebrate those things as like little celebrations of our aliveness.
[00:13:52] Jodi Wellman: Like, I gave a shit and I got to then live and I'm like, that's proof to me that I want to live rather than just get to the end of my week and month and year in life and be like, Oh wow, I got a lot done, but I'm bored.
[00:14:03] Sally Clarke: I love it so much, Jodi. And this brings me really beautifully, I think, to my next question, which is these terms that you use in the book.
[00:14:09] Sally Clarke: Which are living wider with vitality and living deeper with meaning. And I would love it if you could unpack for us a little bit about what each of those means. And also, no one can see my hand gestures right now, but I'm going wide, I'm going deep. Like what, what's the correlation there with those terms?
[00:14:25] Jodi Wellman: Oh, yes. Well, this came out after studying with positive psychology, the different dimensions of well being, and it kind of lent itself to looking at this framework. And part of it also came from this idea. And I think visually about how we want to live longer. And that's like one part of a chart. Okay, fine.
[00:14:40] Jodi Wellman: Great. Yeah, we'd love to live longer. But if you know, As long as we're, like, healthy and, like, able bodied and able minded and all the things. Quality of life, not quantity. So this way of living and well being does relate to this dimension of living wider with vitality and deeper with meaning in that the widening is about adding in the fun.
[00:14:59] Jodi Wellman: The experiences in life, the pleasure, the stuff that aligns to what's called hedonic wellbeing. It's just like the range of it. Like, are you participating in life with the things that make you feel fun and alive and engaged and just this kind of whirlwind, it's fun, it's frothy, it's fizzy, great, fun stuff, right?
[00:15:14] Jodi Wellman: It could be hobbies. It could be trying new foods. It could be exploring, being curious, adventures, road trips, all the fun things. Life needs to have some of that. And a lot of people will just save that for the weekend or vacation. I guess I said that in a robot voice on purpose. So that's the vitality range.
[00:15:31] Jodi Wellman: wide. But we also want to make life deeper and we need this counterbalance. And it's associated with um, in the well being world it's called the eudaimonic dimension of well being. Um, a big fancy word for just like purpose and meaning. More of a connection to other people, spirituality, if that floats your boat.
[00:15:45] Jodi Wellman: Having that sense of like the goodness in life. And that could be for some Maybe it is part of the volunteering or a religious practice or feeling like the work you do or not even the work you do is serving some kind of purpose for good. And it doesn't mean need to be everybody's starting a nonprofit.
[00:16:01] Jodi Wellman: I think a lot of people actually put pressure on themselves that my, well, my, my purpose has to be magnanimous. Oh, come on. There's not enough room in the world for all of us to save the world. Like we could just have a, like a lovely life where we're making a little difference bit by bit. I mean, I'm not going to stop you from doing big things, never, but I think we just put so much pressure.
[00:16:17] Jodi Wellman: So, but that would be deepening. And so for most of us, we have a sense, like when I'm talking about them, you probably both have that feeling now. And I know I'm sure you maybe have some notes on it. Like, do I feel like I'm living wide enough? Like if I was a scale of one to 10, am I having enough kind of fun and pleasure?
[00:16:32] Jodi Wellman: And then on the deepening with meaning and purpose and stuff like it, I don't know. How would I write that on a scale of one to ten? And you know, when you mash those two together, you get different quadrants. So that's where we can find ourselves. And I do find it helpful to be a framework to figure out, okay, where do I start?
[00:16:45] Jodi Wellman: If I want more life out of life, okay, that's cool. But where do I start? This is one way to, I guess, diagnose
[00:16:51] Alexis Zahner: it. I think what's most powerful, if I will, Jodie, about your framework, Living Wider with Vitality and Deeper with Meaning, is that it gives us what we call human leaders. empowered agency. And that is arguably you cannot control how long you live, but you can control the quality of the life you live.
[00:17:09] Alexis Zahner: And for me, it almost felt just so deeply liberating and empowering to say, do you know what, take control of the controllable and actually do something about it rather than focusing and fixating on the elements that are outside of our control. For me, that was the message that came through more than anything.
[00:17:23] Jodi Wellman: Oh, I'm really glad you caught that. That would be the advanced level. Reader that would catch that. I think that was dynamite because I don't know if I made that abundantly clear, like the idea, like we get to be the designers of this time, you know, and part of it comes back to like the earlier part of our conversation.
[00:17:38] Jodi Wellman: Like, are we actually doing ourselves the favor to stop and pulse check and be like, wait, how's it going? Oh, wait, this part's super good. Maybe I should do more of it. Oh, this part feels like a cavernous, empty, homemade, like, what's one thing I might do in order to help address that rather than going with the flow, rather than letting the months pass by.
[00:17:54] Jodi Wellman: And then all of a sudden it's New Year's again. And we're like, I'm, or your birthday comes and you're like, where is time going? It's because we're not. being thoughtful about it. And then the agency is there. When you just said agency, it's funny, Alexis, because it made me think about, um, Martin Seligman is the psychologist who founded positive psychology.
[00:18:10] Jodi Wellman: You know, he's got all the books out and he's, he's amazing. So it's his program that I took at Penn and his book that he is just publishing and he's, um, early eighties. He's not stopping. I mean, this, this is a guy, no, you know what? He does have a recreation life cause he's big time in his garden. So he does balance life, his productivity with playing bridge and gardening and a whole bunch of things, but this guy's a machine and he is not stopping his book, his opus, if I could even call it that it's about agency.
[00:18:33] Jodi Wellman: And that's like a culmination of like so much of what he sees about advancement with humanity in the world, especially around positive psychology. Like we get to choose even though that's really freaking hard sometimes.
[00:18:44] Sally Clarke: And I think it's also very much in a sort of modern media landscape. We're so bombarded with messaging that is so big and so intense and so overwhelming that it is very easy for us to lose.
[00:18:55] Sally Clarke: site of where we can pull the levers, where we can make changes and where we can really take sort of radical ownership of our lives and our choices. And I love that, you know, I think your book also being framed around this idea of being undead, of being vital, of being alive is such a beautiful framework for that.
[00:19:12] Alexis Zahner: Hmm. Thank
[00:19:13] Sally Clarke: you.
[00:19:13] Alexis Zahner: Now, Jodi, how can we make sure that we're living with vitality and meaning in the context of, say, our career or even our leadership?
[00:19:21] Jodi Wellman: Yeah. I somehow suspected you would ask a question about leadership. You people, I love you guys. Funny that. It's what we do. Surprise. Yeah. I love this because I come from the corporate existence.
[00:19:35] Jodi Wellman: And I'll just share with you guys as an aside. I've been toying with this idea for, you know, almost ever, but I never knew how to build this into this kind of discussion into corporate environments, leadership, the workplace. And so for years, I didn't, I just kept doing the leadership development and coaching and all that other stuff.
[00:19:51] Jodi Wellman: And then until finally, I realized, well, we'll wait a minute. If you package it right, not everybody will run away when you talk about the grim reaper. So the key is, yeah, let's not talk about the grim reaper for a hot sec. And let's talk about, so the vitality meaning I should just share with you guys.
[00:20:04] Jodi Wellman: small soapbox that I've been on lately, which it might be counter to what, I don't know, maybe another point I will make, but I just want to put a little, little pin in the idea that I think we as a society put inordinate pressure on work to be this source of meaning and joy and all the purpose and everything in our lives.
[00:20:23] Jodi Wellman: And, I mean, believe me, like, I've seen jobs where it can be. Like, the truth is, is that right now mine is, and others are. It's possible, but I do see legions and legions of people, whether they're new graduates, or they've been around the block in their career, and it's like, they're feeling like they're getting the short end of the stick.
[00:20:39] Jodi Wellman: Because they're like, well, my job isn't giving me endless feelings of purpose and it's not making me, you know, I don't have all the fun in the world there. And I think the reason is because work is going to not always be perfect and leaders won't always be great. And that I also think it's more of a reflection though, of how we're not living as widely and deeply So if we just augment our lives a little more and take that, you know, glass blowing class on Thursday nights or like go and do the restorative yoga or go and arrange a social hour at the library where you read to kids or like do the things outside work, when you go into work, all of a sudden your attitude towards it changes because there's not as much pressure for it to be everything.
[00:21:18] Jodi Wellman: So that's the soapbox right now that I see you guys are nodding. No one can see you, but people, they're nodding right now, right? We absolutely,
[00:21:24] Sally Clarke: we are
[00:21:25] Jodi Wellman: confirmed
[00:21:26] Sally Clarke: very much. So yeah, one of the reasons I think that's for me just really so beautiful. And that message is, you know, when we invest all of our own self identity in our work, it makes us incredibly susceptible to things like chronic stress.
[00:21:40] Sally Clarke: It means that things get really sharp and nasty when we do start to perhaps feel like, Oh, I thought this was going to be everything. And it's not, and that can be almost. Existentially, you know, sort of potent and painful experience. I see it a lot with people who go through it in burnout and went through it myself.
[00:21:55] Sally Clarke: And I think this message about broadening the array of means through which we self identify is so key. And again, it's counterintuitive because we think, no, to be good at work, I need to work more to be a good leader. I just need to lead more, but it's actually in sewing in sort of like weaving in these other things to our life that we strengthen those qualities.
[00:22:13] Sally Clarke: And we also make things so much more sustainable for ourselves.
[00:22:16] Jodi Wellman: Oh, I love all that. And also this array, you know, one of the things, so in the teams that I work with, it's unexpected sometimes, but it's like, let's just start with you guys as humans. And what are the things that, you know, you might regret on your deathbed.
[00:22:28] Jodi Wellman: And to be super honest, most of the stuff has to do with stuff outside work. Like every now and then it is about, Oh, I wish that I had applied for the bigger job or I did that course. Sometimes of course it's that, but often it is about like, I wished I had learned how to speak English. Speak Italian, or I would have, you know, if I was on my deathbed, I would have wanted to have taken that Alaskan cruise or, you know, plan that family reunion or started that foundation, whatever it is.
[00:22:49] Jodi Wellman: And the best leaders I do believe, and I see this statistically, so it's not just an opinion based on, you know, it's not lovey dovey. It's that they are the ones that are. Fostering that for their team to be able to say, let's make time to talk a little bit about your extracurricular life. Like, how can we support you?
[00:23:04] Jodi Wellman: And that doesn't mean I'm going to pay for your Alaskan cruise, but that means like, let's talk about it. Like, when can you build it? Like really, you know, Johan, you've talked about it, like for real, when do you think you can book it? And like having teams that kind of hold each other accountable to those things, to your dreams.
[00:23:16] Jodi Wellman: Beyond and if it could be like, wow, you've been writing that poetry book for how many years, Marcy? Okay, well, when do you think you could fit it in? Like, what about at lunch hour? What if we didn't bother you for an hour every day and it gave you a chance to get creative? I mean, those are little things.
[00:23:29] Jodi Wellman: And then of course, so I feel like that's the big elephant in the room that we're talking about is like, live wide and deep in your whole life and make that okay to talk about at work. Oh, and then also, I mean, obviously, if your work is lousy and it's really robbing you of aliveness, then that needs to probably be dealt with, and that usually means self assessment first, because sometimes we think that the grass is greener, but then we always just bring our problems with us to the next job, you know?
[00:23:52] Jodi Wellman: Why don't they respect me anywhere I work? Oh, maybe you might need to do some work on whatever that issue is, but I would never advocate to stay in a crappy job and then just go take a painting class. Like just to be clear that, you know, leave a bad job, but as leaders, just back to like what you do so well, you know, talking with, working with inspiring leaders, you know, I think that there's a lot of vitality and meaning that can be gained, of course, at work.
[00:24:14] Jodi Wellman: And so much of it has to do with. Figuring out what makes people light up. And there are so many times where like, I'll work with a team and I'll be like, okay, think about all the things you did in like the last week or even the last few weeks, what stuff just made you feel most alive. And it's so cool to get people to say, Oh, well, when I got to do that, you know, spreadsheet or, you know, I can't imagine that, but whatever, or like I got to, when I got to present in front of that client and it was like, I felt so alive or someone else, when I got to put together that proposal and I got to be creative or I got to be strategic in that big brainstorming meeting.
[00:24:44] Jodi Wellman: And like, these are things where like. We hide the things that give us joy because a, we don't think it maybe matters or B, we just think, well, that's, um, you know, that's Yolanda's job, but I don't want to step on her toes or, well, my job description doesn't have innovation in it. So I don't know what to do.
[00:24:56] Jodi Wellman: If as a leader, you find out the thing that makes somebody feel most energized and use their strengths, that's just a shortcut to aliveness. And you're going to get so much more, I mean, to be honest, I mean, better productivity and performance, but then
[00:25:09] Alexis Zahner: retention, and then we all win. I'm glad you pointed to these organizational outcomes as well, Jodi, because I was going to ask a question there, because I know you've coached thousands of leaders across the world.
[00:25:18] Alexis Zahner: And I'd love if we can, you know, in your experience, What does that transformation look like for a leader before and after perhaps coaching or asking themselves these tough questions? How does their life change? What do they have to gain from tapping into this and then bringing that through and how they lead?
[00:25:34] Jodi Wellman: Oh, what a good question. You know, I think there are probably a few different scenarios that could be common. So there's a classic prototype of a leader who is scared to relinquish some control. Right. And that might mean that they have their own fears of, you know, letting other people make mistakes that might in some way make things inefficient or look bad on them, or, and maybe there is a lot at risk.
[00:25:53] Jodi Wellman: There could be high stakes stuff, but when, you know, back to autonomy, you know, recognizing if leaders are more comfortable with what it takes for people to feel motivated. to do their best work. So like having a sense of purpose, having that sense of autonomy to be able to like give them room to breathe and don't breathe down their neck while they're doing it and admit and let them.
[00:26:12] Jodi Wellman: Here's just one little nuance that I've always found interesting. Just talking about collaboration. You know, there's this idea, a lot of leaders know, okay, I'm supposed to paint a vision. Okay. I'll paint a vision of what success looks like in this project or for this big, you know, our quarter or for whatever.
[00:26:25] Jodi Wellman: And people want to follow a compelling vision. It's very enticing. We're, we're kind of wired to do it. And a lot of leaders will skip that just because it gets tactical. Paint the picture of like, imagine us celebrating at the end of this year, at our holiday get together. And here are the ways that we're going to know that we've been so amazing and high five each other and celebrate.
[00:26:44] Jodi Wellman: And then, but then let people figure out how to get there. Because I think leaders also put so much pressure to be like, well, now I've got to go and do the step by step. But research is so clear that the thing that most people prefer, unless you're, you know, first day on the job. And in which case you need a little guidance is like you paint the vision and let me with autonomy work backwards.
[00:27:02] Jodi Wellman: Let me be creative. Let me coordinate with my colleagues, but like give people room to feel like they can master it and own it and do great things. So I think that some of this is just like basic psychology that no one's ever taught. I mean, this is the funny thing to me. It's. Like, I don't have kids, but it's always been amazing that, you know, people, you just become a parent, but like, you didn't have to pass a course, like most people in leadership, you just get promoted because you were a pretty good individual contributor.
[00:27:26] Jodi Wellman: And now all of a sudden your job is entirely different because you're responsible for the care and feeding of humans, you know, which really is what it is. It's like, how do you motivate people to do their best work? It's not really about the other stuff. So I guess to go back more to your question, it's like relinquishing, it's like giving people room to do their best work and then figuring out how to do What is that?
[00:27:43] Jodi Wellman: And how do you motivate people? Because everyone's different. So acknowledging like someone, you know, Alexis, you might want to be given a lot, ton of recognition. That's your fuel. Okay. I'll do, I can do that. Then I can give you high fives and I can give you public and private recognition and praise. And Sally, maybe it's like this idea about you might love, just like, give me a good challenging task that I can undo that.
[00:28:01] Jodi Wellman: Not that no one else knows how to figure out. And then when I nail it, I feel so motivated and I want more. Like maybe I need, you know, it's like Just let's learn about what makes people tick. It's like, as the leader, be more of a coach first, find out about the little tiny little bits and pieces that make that how we're wired and then like tap into it and let people free, you know, and then that tends to be pretty darned scary and then rewarding when it's like, Oh, I just needed to give a good structure and then good breathing room.
[00:28:26] Jodi Wellman: And then I let magic happen. Brilliant.
[00:28:28] Alexis Zahner: I just wanted to point out one word that I heard you mentioned, Jodi, that I think was really important for us to pause on. And it's the word mastery. I heard you say mastery in there. And I just, as looking at this from a leadership perspective, I just thought that was a really important word to bring up because I think what it tells us is that a lot of people, most of us, I would argue, actually put more value in learning and becoming a better version of ourselves than we do necessarily in attaining the goal itself.
[00:28:54] Alexis Zahner: I think it's. The attainment of the goal, the process of getting there, where we learn new skills, uncover talents within ourselves, strengths, new ways of working that actually is more rewarding than hitting the goal itself. And I just thought that was a really important word to pause on.
[00:29:09] Jodi Wellman: Yeah. It's such a good point too, cause you're making me think about, you know, the work.
[00:29:12] Jodi Wellman: Kramer and then partner, I don't remember, but the progress principle, like we often believe that, Oh, it's the gold when it's attained that we're all going to feel so good, but it's just the tiny milestones in progress along the way. And if mastery, I think that some of us even think mastery is an end game when like, I hear what you're describing it is as I love it.
[00:29:29] Jodi Wellman: It's like, Like it's the process, it's the trials and tribulations and it's when you fall and you skin your knees, but you're like, but I learned so much from that screw. I'm so much better. And then you figure it out and then it's more gratifying. Right? Like it's when you wrestle with something and then you get it, then you feel like you're a champion.
[00:29:46] Jodi Wellman: Then if it just like, it was all easy. Well, That sounds so boring. Not vitality filled.
[00:29:52] Sally Clarke: No, I think another word that you used that was really interesting as well is this idea of autonomy and you know, a lot of what you were describing in terms of leadership behaviors, including allowing people to feel this sense of autonomy because that just so quickly leads to feeling respected and trusted and exactly what you suggested.
[00:30:08] Sally Clarke: Like once we feel those things in that environment, of course, we're going to want to stay there longer because that's a lovely feeling to have as a human being.
[00:30:15] Jodi Wellman: Oh, man. Okay. I'm going to go to something because what you're both making me think of is this concept that I learned about only in the last few years.
[00:30:22] Jodi Wellman: It's new to me and it's just still super exciting and called mattering. And so it's like, ideally over time, we have the balancing of two parts that are important. It's like feeling valued and adding value. And we've been talking about the ones on the adding value. So that sense of like doing a good day's work, the mastery, the autonomy, that sense of like, I'm doing something that someone cares about.
[00:30:40] Jodi Wellman: I'm not just doing a spreadsheet that gets filed away and no one cares about. So that's the adding value. And that's so crucial. Right. And then there's the feeling, which is that sense of recognition and belonging and fairness. And like people would notice if I just wasn't here for a week, you know, I'm part of a team.
[00:30:54] Jodi Wellman: And also like when I do good work, someone gives a shit. Like someone actually says specifically, not just good work, but they say like, wow, you know, that report was so well thought out and here's why. And it makes you feel like a billion bucks. And that took, you know, leaders will often think this is the funniest thing to me.
[00:31:09] Jodi Wellman: It's actually not. It's the unfunniest thing. Giving positive recognition. Is one of the most missed opportunities. And it's the lowest hanging fruit out there for psychology. Like we, most people, even if you don't want it publicly, really enjoy and learn from good feedback. And it's free and it does not take a lot of time.
[00:31:26] Jodi Wellman: And yet a lot of leaders, Hey, we all know that we're all afraid to give negative feedback. I mean, that's a whole other show, but let alone the positive feedback. It's like, it's yours to give. It's right there and you know, catch people doing something, right? Like it doesn't, you don't have to look far.
[00:31:38] Jodi Wellman: People are doing good stuff all the time, but we miss the chance to be able to say that presentation you did. Knocked my socks off. And here are two reasons why. And you give those two and you, and then, you know, wow. And keep it up and like great work. And that person goes home that night feeling so incredibly on fire and then more engaged to do even better.
[00:31:55] Jodi Wellman: And it's not, I'm not talking about manipulating. So someone wants to stay, it's like, be honest about it, but that's there for us. And it fascinates me that we just kind of leave the good stuff on the table when that balances the scales of mattering in many ways. And I think an easy way, you know, Does it, you guys, you guys nodded, like, you know what I'm talking about, right?
[00:32:11] Sally Clarke: A hundred percent. It's such a critical way to make someone feel three dimensional, like a human being that's seen and valued and heard. And let's face it, these are psychological needs that we all have at work as well as elsewhere. So I think that's such a beautiful reminder to us and also to everyone listening to like take those opportunities to don't just assume that someone knows they're great, but to remind them and to remind them why.
[00:32:32] Jodi Wellman: Oh, well, some of the best teams that I work with, it's funny because we put a lot of pressure on leaders. That's, you know, it's a big, big hard job. And I think that maybe there needs to be a redistribution of understanding of who does what. Because I think the best teams are ones where the colleagues are ones that are giving very explicit feedback.
[00:32:51] Jodi Wellman: It is both. So encouraging and positive. And it's also very clearly specific constructive. And then the leader we're waiting for the leader to say it, you know, same thing about accountability, like the best team members hold each other accountable to the promises made the commitments. It's not the leader that has to say, Jane, your report's due in 20 minutes.
[00:33:08] Jodi Wellman: So, I mean, we all have love to give when it comes to giving good feedback. And I just like, why hold back the love? I mean, in and out of work, really. Amen to that.
[00:33:16] Sally Clarke: Sort of thinking again of the leader who's listening and, you know, you've got this beautiful online quiz, which we both did, and we both did, you know, pretty well, but I'm curious to sort of ask, when we're on the behalf of someone who's doing that quiz and getting kind of a Deadish result, lower end of the scale.
[00:33:32] Sally Clarke: What are some strategies that you would advise to that person to start to shift into a more vital and meaningful space?
[00:33:40] Jodi Wellman: Yeah, I love the question 'cause I think we're talking about most people, to be honest. I mean it, when I, the Astonishingly alive category, which is kind of the oh meaning doesn't have to be glowy and you know, the things we talked about earlier.
[00:33:51] Jodi Wellman: It doesn't mean that you're always taking these like yacht trips around the world and all the high, all the things. It could be just. Sweet, special, simple, lovely existence that in your version is astonishingly alive. I think it's like 14 percent of people identify as that. Now, there's a hefty group of people that are kind of, you know, middling around all the zones.
[00:34:08] Jodi Wellman: But I think number one is accepting, oh, it's so incredibly humanly normal because I think we ostracize ourselves and we, then we judge ourselves and we feel like, oh my gosh. I'm the only one that's in the dead zone. Oh no, it's a big club. All we got to do is acknowledge, hey, it's cool. And now it's just one little thing at a time that we can do to kind of get out of there.
[00:34:25] Jodi Wellman: And I think that the first thing is to taking that like diagnosing and saying, okay, is it the width part that feels a little bit mushy to you? Not a lot of fun, not a lot of enjoyment, or is it the meaning part that what you're doing feels a little bit empty and you're not connected to people? Maybe it's both, but I will just tell you that in most research, research shows it's easier to juice up some of the vitality first because there are more chances, right?
[00:34:47] Jodi Wellman: To be like, you know what, what's one easy way I can just do something to feel a little more alive? And it might be that, you know, you're going to go and take out the violin that you used to play. You know, or like, you know what? We have not ordered that pizza in a long time. That'd be so fun to do today.
[00:35:00] Jodi Wellman: Or let's go out for Sundays. You know, ice cream Sundays. Or like, there's some little fun things you can do that can just spruce up your day without a lot of time or money. And those are little indications again, that you're maybe out of a slump and you can just say like, look, I mean, to be honest, look, I did a thing.
[00:35:13] Jodi Wellman: I went for ice cream. Like that could make the difference in a day between your week being absolutely perfect. Absolutely monotonous and feeling like we had a little bit of fun. And then that can be the thing where you can start building. So that is the easy path to get back onto feeling astonishingly alive, but I think for most of us, it's, I'm a big fan of keeping like inspirational lists of what are all the ideas you have that might possibly sound exciting and interesting that would widen your life.
[00:35:37] Jodi Wellman: And then what are all the things that might be, you're curious about that you might want to do to deepen. And it doesn't, it's not an action list. It's sort of like your brainstorm list. And like everything, when we put pen to paper, you know, brain. To pen to paper. It helps us process information in ways that we just don't typically do.
[00:35:52] Jodi Wellman: Especially if you're just sitting there moaning and groaning about your life to yourself. And so if you just start to take some notes and say, Wow, actually, as I wrote this down and I looked at this thing where it says that I like, maybe I might want to inquire about what it might mean to Go and work at that soup kitchen.
[00:36:05] Jodi Wellman: Like, you know what? That would be kind of cool. Or no, maybe I want to work at the animal shelter instead. I want to go Google that. And you go Google it. And then you go find out that they're having an orientation meeting next Saturday morning that you might be able to make the next thing, you know, you're going, and then maybe you'll do it or maybe you won't, but you're showing yourself that you're just doing like taking a step.
[00:36:22] Jodi Wellman: So I think that Number one, normalize it. Number two, maybe start with vitality because it's just a little bit easier. And then number three, take some notes and just try one little thing and be okay if it's a total, total bust. Like you could go to that animal shelter meeting and be like, I want nothing to do with this.
[00:36:38] Jodi Wellman: And, but you know what you do? You walk home and you high five. You're like, I'm amazing. Cause I went and tried it. I gave it a try. But now I'm going to go and check out the library reading to kids instead. Or no, maybe this isn't for me. Maybe volunteering is not the thing for me. Maybe I just want to rekindle my social connections that I kind of lost track of that I would feel kind of good to like get together again.
[00:36:55] Jodi Wellman: Maybe I replan that girls trip that we've been talking about since, you know, 2012 or you get the idea. I could go on and on. This is like, I'm getting all hopped up over here.
[00:37:04] Alexis Zahner: it. I love it. And Jodi, interestingly, so when I first did your quiz, I was in the vitally empty category and I have so many things to say about what you've just mentioned, but one of them was when I scored that I was firstly a little confused.
[00:37:18] Alexis Zahner: And secondly, when I took the quiz. The time to think about that a little more deeply and journal on it a little bit. I personally actually realized that it wasn't meaning that I was lacking, but it was present focus on the fact that the things that are bringing me meaning just aren't at a point yet where I feel like the world can recognize.
[00:37:38] Alexis Zahner: Perhaps my contributions. And so for me, it was actually a moment of reframing to say, you know, I haven't achieved all of the goals yet that I think are going to bring me meaning, but actually my day to day still has meaning. I just need to take ownership for reframing that. And so for me, it was such a profound takeaway and it was a little kick up the butt to say, do you know what?
[00:37:56] Alexis Zahner: Chill out. You're doing the most. Just focus on the present and actually you will feel more alive. By just reframing what that looks like and means like right now. So thank you for the quiz. It was, it kicked my butt.
[00:38:07] Jodi Wellman: You know what, your example right now, thank you. Because think about all the people listening who are like, wait a minute.
[00:38:12] Jodi Wellman: I might be being a little hard on myself about, I am doing stuff that in some way is meaningful or purposeful or whatnot. And you're right. Maybe like, cause this sounds like a classic mattering thing, right? Like you're contributing, you're adding, like you're doing stuff. Stuff, but it maybe things haven't necessarily been, dare I say, like the impact hasn't been felt as wide as, as you know, that it may eventually, or even, so, you know me, I like your idea about the reframe.
[00:38:33] Jodi Wellman: You're doing it. And dare I even say, I met with somebody a couple weeks ago, it was at a conference and they were working as a, oh golly, it doesn't matter, but therapist of some sort and. They wanted to launch a really big brand. And she was really disappointed because she wasn't getting as much traction as she wanted.
[00:38:48] Jodi Wellman: And we talked all about the whole comparison thing, how she was comparing to some of her role models and idols online. And it's a double edged sword, right? They can be inspiring, but they can also be demoralizing, depending on your mood. And okay, yeah. And she's like, I'm not enough. And it was all the whole thing.
[00:39:03] Jodi Wellman: And we're like, Oh, we raised a glass. Cause I hear you sister. And then it was like, when do you, like, at the end of the day, Literally the end of the day, like when do you feel like, what gives you like, where's the impact? Then she told a couple stories about helping a couple clients of whom she did not name by name, but like just knowing like I helped them with this tricky situation or I helped them in this way and seeing her light up in that way and being like, maybe we do need to sort of size the prize about like what we're working towards,
[00:39:29] Sally Clarke: right?
[00:39:29] Sally Clarke: It's so important. I think It's a really kind of actually alluded to this earlier, just like celebrate those things and taking the time to acknowledge that actually we are having impact and it might not be exactly in the way that our expectations are set at. But actually when we do take that time to sort of reflect, there's often, I think a lot of space to be held for like, actually I'm doing a really good job of living, you know, in attunement, in alignment and heading in the direction.
[00:39:53] Sally Clarke: You know, it's, I'm not there at the destination yet, but I'm on the journey and I trust that path. And another thing that I just wanted to mention as well is something I think is so beautiful that you alluded to as well, that I think often we have these sort of routines and habits that we don't question, but it can be just as simple and research shows, like, even just taking a slightly different route to the supermarket or stopping by a different place.
[00:40:12] Sally Clarke: Coffee shop on the way home, whatever it is, the little things that can be very different that we can see it into our days to start to experience a little more vitality. It's wild. How simple some of this changes can be, but we just don't think of it because we were just on autopilot. So I think it's so inspiring that we, you know, you've given this these very clear set of tools that we can use to start to shift towards a more vital and mattering life.
[00:40:33] Jodi Wellman: Your example right there about driving and taking a different route to the grocery store, I want to share because these are the little things, it's always the little things that add up, right? Because that's a life. My husband and I recently started going to a different grocery store, which is a very big deal because you know your grocery routine.
[00:40:47] Jodi Wellman: You go in and you know you're where your cart goes and you know you're going to get that thing there and then you're going to get those things there. And like, believe me, like, I respect that this keeps us like, it keeps us efficient. And we're not looking typically to spend a ton of time in the grocery store, depending on the grocery store.
[00:41:00] Jodi Wellman: So we switched for just a couple different reasons. And at first it was like the whole world didn't fit. You know, we're like, well, wait a minute, like the tomatoes are coming after the avocado. What is going on here? And here's the thing. Number one, it sounds like such a goofy example, but these are our lives.
[00:41:14] Jodi Wellman: And so we found not only was this grocery store may be better, but it was like, they have different things. And now we're like, well, wait a minute, this is a totally different sauce. And now we're going to make this peanut tie thing. And like, that's interesting. But it was also even just exercising your brain in a new way.
[00:41:30] Jodi Wellman: And we won't go into the brain neuroscience, but we underestimate. The impact of newness that has on our lives. And sometimes, you know, novelty is actually one of the most crucial components of motivation. We've been talking a lot about motivation, autonomy, mastery, purpose. Self determination theory is about having a sense of connectedness, purpose, and the connection and the connection.
[00:41:50] Jodi Wellman: Autonomy, but the creators, Ryan and DC of self determination theory, which is part of motivation, they were debating about whether or not novelty should be part of their theory because having things that are new and just a little bit different, it doesn't need to be earth shattering. It's a little stuff like maybe trying a different thing to the restaurant.
[00:42:06] Jodi Wellman: You always go and always order the same thing. Try something different, try the different route, try a different workout. Do a different thing for date night. Ooh, you have a holiday routine that you typically do, where you do everything this way. What if you just went on a vacation that week instead? Like changing things up big and small, it just does enough jarring that's necessary for us to feel more engaged in life.
[00:42:24] Jodi Wellman: And don't underestimate even the tiniest little changes, like trying a new
[00:42:27] Alexis Zahner: grocery store. As someone who is so fiercely routine and such a serious character, I could not agree with that example more. And frankly, I'm not sure if I'm ready for that level of unsettlement in my life, Jodie. I know where everything is.
[00:42:41] Alexis Zahner: That's a new level of rattled for me.
[00:42:43] Jodi Wellman: Rattled. Existential crisis oncoming. I'll, I'll think about it. Call me from the floor of the supermarket legs.
[00:42:54] Alexis Zahner: Look, that's a conversation I'll have with myself on another day. I'm not, you know, career changes, cool. Grocery store changes, I don't know. I just don't know for me.
[00:43:03] Alexis Zahner: Don't mess with, don't mess, okay, fine. No, I love it. Oh, I love it. Now, Jodie, we could literally have this conversation for hours longer, and perhaps we shall at one point in the future over a margarita or a wine somewhere in the world. But if we may ask you, could you please leave us with one final message for leaders that are listening to our conversation today?
[00:43:24] Jodi Wellman: You know, as unconventional as it might seem, specific to leaders, because I do respect that leaders are also human sometimes. It is this idea about befriending the reaper. And what I mean by that is understanding that the temporary nature, not just of us individually, which is really the core of this, right?
[00:43:39] Jodi Wellman: It's that because we're temporary, we're valuable and we want to make the most of our time. It's like you can be the version, not of the reaper at work. Let's not take this that far. But of the one that recognizes and respects that you have a limited time to get the goodness and to help people be their best selves at work.
[00:43:54] Jodi Wellman: And even recognizing that most people's careers are transient. And I find that we're clinging. Often to wanting to hold on to people fiercely when funny enough, if we just invest in them and show them we care and do that mattering balancing scale and treat them like gold and let's ask them, you know, what makes you alive?
[00:44:10] Jodi Wellman: And we help them feel alive. The funny thing is, is that retention does tend to improve, but even if it doesn't, your legacy is that you will be the person that cared about their lives. And then they're going to talk about you when you are at Your funeral. And wouldn't that be just lovely?
[00:44:24] Sally Clarke: Amazing, Jodi.
[00:44:25] Sally Clarke: Absolutely perfect message for both of us and for all of our listeners. Thank you so much for being with us on We Are Human Leaders today.
[00:44:32] Jodi Wellman: Oh, thank you for having me. It's time well spent.
[00:44:41] Alexis Zahner: If our conversation on Memento Mori with Jodi has inspired you to take action, To live a more astonishingly alive life, find out more about Jodie's tips and strategies, and when you purchase her book, You Only Die Once, how to make it to the end with no regrets, via our show notes at www.
[00:45:02] Alexis Zahner: wearehumanleaders. com. And if you love this conversation, we'd be deeply grateful for a five star rating and review on whichever streaming platform you're listening from. And don't forget, share this episode with a friend or colleague who you know would be inspired by it. Thanks for joining us for this episode on We Are Human Leaders, and we'll see you next time.