Sleep Better, Live and Lead Better with Dr Els van der Helm
Dr Els van der Helm - Sleep Neuroscientist, Adjunct Professor, Global Authority on Sleep.
Dr Els van der Helm is a sleep neuroscientist, adjunct professor at IE Business School in Madrid, lecturer at St. Gallen Business School and IMD Business School, and internationally recognized authority on sleep. Thrive Global has named her as one of the top 5 sleep experts in the world. She advises corporations around the globe on sleep, performance, and well-being, and supports CEOs and decision-makers worldwide to help them get the best out of themselves, their team members, and their organizations.
Sleep is a universal experience for humans. It’s also universally debated: how much sleep should we really be getting?
Why is healthy sleep essential to great leadership and a great life? And, what can we do to improve our sleep? And
In this episode, we speak with renowned sleep neuroscientist and expert in sleep leadership Dr. Els van der Helm. Els has spent over two decades studying the powerful link between sleep and high performance. She helps leaders, teams, and organizations optimize their productivity, creativity, and emotional resilience through the science of sleep. A former management consultant at McKinsey, Els has worked with top global organizations, helping them reduce sleep debt and enhance employee well-being. And she’s helped thousands of leaders understand the critical role of sleep in performance, decision-making, and leadership. today, she’s here to help you improve your sleep, too.
Now we want to help you understand the vital role sleep plays in your life and leadership, and how to get more of it!
Learn more about Dr Els van der Helm and find her book here:
Sign up for Dr Els van der Helm’s weekly newsletter here.
Find her website here.
Episode Transcript:
[00:00:00] Alexis Zahner: Welcome to, we Are Human Leaders. El, it's such a pleasure to sit down with you today and we'd love to begin our conversation by getting to know you a little bit more and the journey that has brought you to this important work that you are doing now.
[00:00:26] Dr Els van der Helm: Yeah,
[00:00:26] Alexis Zahner: Yeah.
[00:00:27] Dr Els van der Helm: Um, I actually, uh, got onto this track of looking at sleep and how it impacts our cognitive performance and our health. Um, a really, really long time ago, so I was only 16 years old when I picked up very randomly a book in a bookshop, uh, by Stanford professor, bill Amens. Um, it was called the Promise of Sleep. And I think it just immediately grabbed me because it was about the brain and psychology and human behavior. Um, but about this thing that we do every single night, yet there's kind of this big taboo around it. So in the book, he really described how fundamental and magical sleep is, yet how we see it as kind of a waste of time and you can sleep when you're dead.
[00:01:13] And, and I just thought, oh my God, you know, everybody should know about this and. The world will be a better place because of it. Um. Anyway, that was when I was 16. So then what do you do? Um, I went to university, uh, there's no university degree in sleep, so I ended up, uh, studying neuropsychology and neurosciences where I got to do sleep research.
[00:01:35] Um, first in the Netherlands, then at Harvard, and then, uh, followed up with my PhD at uc, Berkeley. Um, really always focused on how. How does sleep help human beings function during the day? Um, emotionally and cognitively. And at the end of my PhD, I made a complete switch. Um, I left academia, went into the business world, worked as a McKinsey strategy consultant.
[00:02:00] Thought I would never do anything with any of that sleep knowledge. Um, again, I was just really curious about businesses and, you know, what problems are there to solve You know, as you can probably imagine, um, at McKinsey, everybody was working long days, very tired. Yet everybody was really obsessed with doing a good job and taking care of themselves.
[00:02:25] And everybody could talk about marathons and nutrition and all of that, but no
[00:02:29] Alexis Zahner: But no one
[00:02:31] Dr Els van der Helm: about sleep
[00:02:31] Alexis Zahner: do anything about.
[00:02:32] Sally Clarke: Right.
[00:02:33] Dr Els van der Helm: I realized that I really liked talking about sleep and giving them advice on sleep. And whenever a client would discover that my PhD was in sleep, the entire conversation would would only be about sleep.
[00:02:46] And I started to
[00:02:46] Alexis Zahner: I realize I really enjoyed that. So
[00:02:49] Dr Els van der Helm: to
[00:02:49] Alexis Zahner: I started to give workshops,
[00:02:50] Dr Els van der Helm: internally at
[00:02:51] Alexis Zahner: at the,
[00:02:52] Dr Els van der Helm: for McKinsey clients. Um,
[00:02:54] Alexis Zahner: um,
[00:02:54] Dr Els van der Helm: was
[00:02:55] Alexis Zahner: that was
[00:02:55] Dr Els van der Helm: so much
[00:02:56] Alexis Zahner: so much
[00:02:56] Dr Els van der Helm: I
[00:02:57] Alexis Zahner: that I realized
[00:02:58] Dr Els van der Helm: is actually all I wanna
[00:02:59] Alexis Zahner: actually all I,
[00:02:59] Dr Els van der Helm: So
[00:02:59] Alexis Zahner: so I
[00:03:00] Dr Els van der Helm: now, um,
[00:03:01] Alexis Zahner: almost
[00:03:02] Dr Els van der Helm: ago,
[00:03:02] Alexis Zahner: ago, and I work with organizations
[00:03:06] Dr Els van der Helm: and leaders
[00:03:07] Alexis Zahner: leaders on the topic of
[00:03:09] Dr Els van der Helm: performance.
[00:03:10] Alexis Zahner: performance leadership. Um,
[00:03:12] Dr Els van der Helm: of course
[00:03:13] Alexis Zahner: and of course wellbeing, kind of all of the ingredients that make human beings, um, be able to be in their best.
[00:03:22] Sally Clarke: Such an incredible journey El and I love how you've really already touched on some key themes around sleep, including this kind of taboo that we have around talking about it, but also this kind of very negative perception that we have in our modern society about sleep. I'm a former corporate finance lawyer and that was certainly, you know, very much just keep drinking coffee until you fall over kind of thing. Um, but it's, it sounds like it's a
[00:03:44] Alexis Zahner: Sounds it. Very organic process.
[00:03:45] Sally Clarke: through to come to now really focusing on sleep and. It's also not surprising to me that people's eyes kind of light up when you start to mention that topic because it is something that we all do. We all know on some
[00:03:57] Alexis Zahner: On some
[00:03:58] Sally Clarke: we know it's important, but things get in the
[00:04:00] Alexis Zahner: things get in the way of us. Actually,
[00:04:02] Sally Clarke: proper sleep that will support and sustain us. And just to go back
[00:04:06] Alexis Zahner: just to go back to,
[00:04:07] Sally Clarke: I'd love it if you could unpack for us, you know, why, what happens when we sleep? What, what goes on in our brains and our bodies? Why is it so important?
[00:04:14] Dr Els van der Helm: Yeah. Well, I
[00:04:15] Alexis Zahner: yeah,
[00:04:16] Dr Els van der Helm: thing
[00:04:16] Alexis Zahner: I think.
[00:04:16] Dr Els van der Helm: really is that when we sleep, our brain is not just resting in, in a way, our brain is not asleep.
[00:04:25] Alexis Zahner: Honestly,
[00:04:26] Dr Els van der Helm: It's actually really
[00:04:27] Alexis Zahner: actually really working hard
[00:04:29] Dr Els van der Helm: memories.
[00:04:30] Alexis Zahner: memories, his preparing neur own pathways
[00:04:33] Dr Els van der Helm: emotional balance.
[00:04:34] Alexis Zahner: balance.
[00:04:35] Dr Els van der Helm: see
[00:04:36] Alexis Zahner: see wakefulness
[00:04:38] Dr Els van der Helm: huge
[00:04:39] Alexis Zahner: a huge challenge to our brain
[00:04:41] Dr Els van der Helm: can
[00:04:41] Alexis Zahner: that we deal with
[00:04:42] Dr Els van der Helm: for about
[00:04:43] Alexis Zahner: for about 16
[00:04:44] Dr Els van der Helm: average.
[00:04:45] Alexis Zahner: average.
[00:04:45] Dr Els van der Helm: but then we see, then we start to see that our brain can't function anymore. So we basically have a limit of
[00:04:52] Alexis Zahner: Limit of
[00:04:53] Dr Els van der Helm: long
[00:04:53] Alexis Zahner: how long
[00:04:54] Dr Els van der Helm: awake effectively. And sleep
[00:04:57] Alexis Zahner: and sleep that basically
[00:04:58] Dr Els van der Helm: to
[00:04:59] Alexis Zahner: comes in to undo
[00:04:59] Dr Els van der Helm: all of that damage
[00:05:00] Alexis Zahner: of that damage,
[00:05:01] Dr Els van der Helm: um,
[00:05:02] Alexis Zahner: repair, um, the damage that was done and prepare us for, um, the next day. So what we see is
[00:05:08] Dr Els van der Helm: without enough
[00:05:09] Alexis Zahner: without
[00:05:10] Dr Els van der Helm: both cognitive and emotional
[00:05:12] Alexis Zahner: and emotional.
[00:05:13] Dr Els van der Helm: impaired because the entire brain is impacted. Um, so that affects everything from, you know, decision making, um, but
[00:05:21] Alexis Zahner: Um,
[00:05:21] Dr Els van der Helm: our ability to
[00:05:22] Alexis Zahner: our ability to
[00:05:25] Dr Els van der Helm: It's really just about
[00:05:26] Alexis Zahner: is really just about
[00:05:27] Dr Els van der Helm: um, that gets impacted after sleep.
[00:05:29] So it's really the, the solution to the problem
[00:05:34] Alexis Zahner: the problem of.
[00:05:35] Dr Els van der Helm: being sustainable.
[00:05:39] Alexis Zahner: ELs I have always been a little obsessed with a magic number around sleep. And I think, uh, popular media has also told us that there is a certain amount of hours in a day that we must sleep, um, to be at our best. But can you tell us, is sleep a one size fits all thing?
[00:05:57] Dr Els van der Helm: No, no,
[00:05:58] Alexis Zahner: No. No. There's
[00:06:00] Dr Els van der Helm: size fits
[00:06:00] Alexis Zahner: one
[00:06:01] Dr Els van der Helm: And
[00:06:01] Alexis Zahner: all.
[00:06:01] Dr Els van der Helm: think that's actually what makes it so interesting that, you know, there is no
[00:06:06] Alexis Zahner: Is no magical list of, um,
[00:06:09] Dr Els van der Helm: that.
[00:06:10] Alexis Zahner: prescriptions that are gonna work, just everybody.
[00:06:13] Dr Els van der Helm: and that
[00:06:13] Alexis Zahner: Um, and that means that
[00:06:15] Dr Els van der Helm: being
[00:06:15] Alexis Zahner: human being has to do a bit of trial and error on themselves, right?
[00:06:19] Dr Els van der Helm: with sleep need.
[00:06:20] How long should you
[00:06:21] Alexis Zahner: should,
[00:06:22] Dr Els van der Helm: How much
[00:06:23] Alexis Zahner: how?
[00:06:23] Dr Els van der Helm: enough? indeed, you often hear eight hours in the media as if that's kind of the only number,
[00:06:30] Alexis Zahner: Except
[00:06:30] Dr Els van der Helm: that our
[00:06:31] Alexis Zahner: that our safety
[00:06:32] Dr Els van der Helm: um,
[00:06:33] Alexis Zahner: um,
[00:06:33] Dr Els van der Helm: if you
[00:06:34] Alexis Zahner: uh, if you look at,
[00:06:35] Dr Els van der Helm: the sleep
[00:06:35] Alexis Zahner: you know, the population,
[00:06:37] Dr Els van der Helm: a
[00:06:38] Alexis Zahner: it's a normal curve.
[00:06:39] Dr Els van der Helm: average there
[00:06:40] Alexis Zahner: there
[00:06:41] Dr Els van der Helm: eight
[00:06:41] Alexis Zahner: is about eight hours. That's
[00:06:43] Dr Els van der Helm: we
[00:06:43] Alexis Zahner: probably wide.
[00:06:44] Dr Els van der Helm: eight hours in the media. However, it's a
[00:06:47] Alexis Zahner: it a curve.
[00:06:48] Dr Els van der Helm: so
[00:06:49] Alexis Zahner: so
[00:06:49] Dr Els van der Helm: people don't
[00:06:50] Alexis Zahner: most people don't eat exactly eight hours. They a bit more or
[00:06:53] Dr Els van der Helm: or a bit less.
[00:06:54] Alexis Zahner: a bit less. Mm-hmm.
[00:06:55] Dr Els van der Helm: the majority of people need seven to
[00:06:57] Alexis Zahner: seven to nine hours this week.
[00:06:59] Dr Els van der Helm: and that
[00:06:59] Alexis Zahner: Um, and that it's very rare
[00:07:01] Dr Els van der Helm: able to
[00:07:02] Alexis Zahner: to be able to cope with six hours or less and without negative effects
[00:07:06] Dr Els van der Helm: need
[00:07:06] Alexis Zahner: or really 10 hours or
[00:07:08] Dr Els van der Helm: to
[00:07:08] Alexis Zahner: more.
[00:07:08] So give
[00:07:09] Dr Els van der Helm: um, only about
[00:07:10] Alexis Zahner: about
[00:07:11] Dr Els van der Helm: of the
[00:07:12] Alexis Zahner: of population
[00:07:13] Dr Els van der Helm: can function
[00:07:14] Alexis Zahner: can function. Six.
[00:07:15] Dr Els van der Helm: of sleep without negative effect. So 99% sure that, you know, you'll, you'll
[00:07:21] Alexis Zahner: Wow.
[00:07:21] Dr Els van der Helm: than that.
[00:07:23] Alexis Zahner: Wow.
[00:07:24] Sally Clarke: And I think that goes sort of contrary to so much of what we hear in, you know, in leadership and in our work sort of
[00:07:30] Alexis Zahner: Yeah.
[00:07:31] Sally Clarke: sleep that we can, you know, sort of com, you know, uh, function really
[00:07:35] Alexis Zahner: Well,
[00:07:36] Sally Clarke: six hours. So it's so interesting that that
[00:07:37] Alexis Zahner: that is not the case,
[00:07:39] Sally Clarke: And
[00:07:39] Alexis Zahner: and I'm curious
[00:07:40] Sally Clarke: you've. Obviously done extensive research into what
[00:07:44] Alexis Zahner: really happens
[00:07:44] Sally Clarke: leaders when they start to
[00:07:46] Alexis Zahner: actually.
[00:07:46] Sally Clarke: the level of sleep that they need, so that magic number for them somewhere between seven and nine. What kind of benefits do leaders see when they, when they dial their sleep to the amount that they actually need?
[00:07:56] I.
[00:07:56] Dr Els van der Helm: Yeah,
[00:07:57] Alexis Zahner: Yeah,
[00:07:57] Dr Els van der Helm: what
[00:07:58] Alexis Zahner: so what we see is that.
[00:08:00] Dr Els van der Helm: get good sleep, um, so both enough and good quality, that they
[00:08:05] Alexis Zahner: Um, that they show greater emotional intelligence,
[00:08:08] Dr Els van der Helm: better decision
[00:08:08] Alexis Zahner: better decision making abilities
[00:08:10] Dr Els van der Helm: stronger
[00:08:11] Alexis Zahner: stronger leadership presence. So in fact, well, resident leaders
[00:08:15] Dr Els van der Helm: seen
[00:08:15] Alexis Zahner: are seen as 10% more inspirational,
[00:08:19] Dr Els van der Helm: than
[00:08:19] Alexis Zahner: um, than leaders or not well.
[00:08:21] Dr Els van der Helm: you think
[00:08:21] Alexis Zahner: So if you think about that,
[00:08:23] Dr Els van der Helm: be 10% more
[00:08:24] Alexis Zahner: more inspirational and charismatic as.
[00:08:28] Dr Els van der Helm: you need to do is. Prioritize your sleep. And then on top of being charismatic, you know, you get all these
[00:08:33] Alexis Zahner: You get all these other benefits, um,
[00:08:35] Dr Els van der Helm: of, of
[00:08:36] Alexis Zahner: of
[00:08:36] Dr Els van der Helm: know, a
[00:08:36] Alexis Zahner: being, you know, a better leader. Mm. In addition to that,
[00:08:39] Dr Els van der Helm: we also
[00:08:39] Alexis Zahner: we also see that leaders,
[00:08:42] Dr Els van der Helm: like with
[00:08:42] Alexis Zahner: just like with anything else, right, have magnifying
[00:08:45] Dr Els van der Helm: the people
[00:08:45] Alexis Zahner: on the people around them.
[00:08:47] Dr Els van der Helm: what we
[00:08:47] Alexis Zahner: So what we see is that when leader
[00:08:49] Dr Els van der Helm: sleeps
[00:08:49] Alexis Zahner: as well,
[00:08:50] Dr Els van der Helm: team is
[00:08:51] Alexis Zahner: their team is more
[00:08:52] Dr Els van der Helm: well,
[00:08:52] Alexis Zahner: well.
[00:08:53] Dr Els van der Helm: team is more engaged. But when a leader does not sleep well, their team usually doesn't get enough sleep and the engagements, um, in their team also drops down.
[00:09:03] Alexis Zahner: Down. So there,
[00:09:03] Dr Els van der Helm: there, there are
[00:09:04] Alexis Zahner: there are a lot of
[00:09:06] Dr Els van der Helm: Downstream, um,
[00:09:08] Alexis Zahner: um,
[00:09:09] Dr Els van der Helm: effects
[00:09:09] Alexis Zahner: effects of a leader not sleeping well
[00:09:12] Dr Els van der Helm: leaders
[00:09:12] Alexis Zahner: most leaders are not aware of.
[00:09:14] Dr Els van der Helm: they usually don't teach you this, um, in the
[00:09:17] Alexis Zahner: In the BA, that
[00:09:18] Dr Els van der Helm: need to
[00:09:19] Alexis Zahner: hey, you need to be a good leader. And what does that entail? That
[00:09:22] Dr Els van der Helm: of the core
[00:09:22] Alexis Zahner: one of the things is
[00:09:24] Dr Els van der Helm: care of
[00:09:24] Alexis Zahner: taking care of yourself and role.
[00:09:26] Dr Els van der Helm: behaviors around sleep because you're giving off so many signals to people
[00:09:32] Alexis Zahner: people around you, your team,
[00:09:33] Dr Els van der Helm: how
[00:09:34] Alexis Zahner: about how you
[00:09:35] Dr Els van der Helm: and how you see sleep, and this then impacts their sleep and their performance.
[00:09:41] Alexis Zahner: We are delighted to hear you say that on we are human leaders else as wellbeing and, uh, what we call radical responsibility is something that we know to be really critical in leadership effectiveness. And we know that taking care of ourselves at the most fundamental level is really key to that.
[00:09:59] And so it's really interesting to hear you say that there's a correlation between leaders who sleep well and their team sleeping well. That's, that's quite a sort of fascinating, um, flow on effect. I'd love to, if we could double click a little bit more now into the emotional resilience piece. Obviously leaders face, um, a lot of challenges in their day-to-day, um, working environments.
[00:10:21] Can you help us unpack a little bit more? What's the connection between emotional resilience and sleep?
[00:10:28] Dr Els van der Helm: Yeah, of
[00:10:29] Alexis Zahner: Yeah,
[00:10:29] Dr Els van der Helm: is
[00:10:29] Alexis Zahner: of course. This is actually what my PhD focused on, so.
[00:10:32] Dr Els van der Helm: about this for hours.
[00:10:33] Sally Clarke: Amazing.
[00:10:34] Dr Els van der Helm: Um, so indeed sleep
[00:10:36] Alexis Zahner: Sleep
[00:10:37] Dr Els van der Helm: a
[00:10:37] Alexis Zahner: plays really a crucial role in emotional regulation. Mm-hmm. What it does is that it basically affects
[00:10:43] Dr Els van der Helm: to
[00:10:43] Alexis Zahner: ability to process
[00:10:44] Dr Els van der Helm: and
[00:10:45] Alexis Zahner: and manage emotion.
[00:10:46] Dr Els van der Helm: of
[00:10:47] Alexis Zahner: Mm.
[00:10:47] Dr Els van der Helm: especially
[00:10:48] Alexis Zahner: Especially for leaders, we have to navigate
[00:10:51] Dr Els van der Helm: stress
[00:10:51] Alexis Zahner: stress
[00:10:52] Dr Els van der Helm: make decisions under pressure.
[00:10:54] Alexis Zahner: pressure,
[00:10:55] Dr Els van der Helm: what we
[00:10:55] Alexis Zahner: so what we see is that.
[00:10:57] Dr Els van der Helm: our prefrontal cortex, so the front part of our brain, um, the, the, the part of our brain that makes us really smart, um, can plan, but also
[00:11:06] Alexis Zahner: But also can inhibit our emotional centers, um,
[00:11:11] Dr Els van der Helm: that
[00:11:11] Alexis Zahner: is the part that really gets recharged, um,
[00:11:14] Dr Els van der Helm: sleep.
[00:11:14] Alexis Zahner: sleep and the part that's most vulnerable to wake.
[00:11:18] Dr Els van der Helm: So again, you see here this role
[00:11:20] Alexis Zahner: this role of sleep
[00:11:21] Dr Els van der Helm: helping to kind of fix
[00:11:22] Alexis Zahner: kind of fix the damage that gets done
[00:11:24] Dr Els van der Helm: we are
[00:11:25] Alexis Zahner: as
[00:11:25] Dr Els van der Helm: And we really need this prefrontal cortex to be
[00:11:28] Alexis Zahner: cortex.
[00:11:28] Dr Els van der Helm: well, not just for all these executive functions, but also for this inhibition on our
[00:11:34] Alexis Zahner: On our emotional center.
[00:11:35] Dr Els van der Helm: one of
[00:11:35] Alexis Zahner: So
[00:11:36] Dr Els van der Helm: studies.
[00:11:36] Alexis Zahner: in study
[00:11:37] Dr Els van der Helm: looked
[00:11:37] Alexis Zahner: we looked at, um,
[00:11:38] Dr Els van der Helm: happens when
[00:11:39] Alexis Zahner: happens when people
[00:11:40] Dr Els van der Helm: enough
[00:11:40] Alexis Zahner: get enough sleep?
[00:11:41] Dr Els van der Helm: that
[00:11:42] Alexis Zahner: that every cortex
[00:11:44] Dr Els van der Helm: functioning less and less,
[00:11:45] Alexis Zahner: less and less, becomes kind of sluggish and slow,
[00:11:48] Dr Els van der Helm: emotional
[00:11:49] Alexis Zahner: emotional center
[00:11:50] Dr Els van der Helm: overactive because it's basically missing this break, um, on the emotional
[00:11:55] Alexis Zahner: the emotional center. And that is.
[00:11:57] Dr Els van der Helm: causes a lot of the problems that we see when people get tired in terms of their emotional regulation in that.
[00:12:03] Alexis Zahner: That
[00:12:03] Dr Els van der Helm: stressor creates
[00:12:05] Alexis Zahner: creates much more stress. Mm.
[00:12:08] Dr Els van der Helm: Um,
[00:12:09] Alexis Zahner: Um,
[00:12:09] Dr Els van der Helm: in
[00:12:09] Alexis Zahner: but then in addition to experiencing more stress,
[00:12:12] Dr Els van der Helm: harder
[00:12:13] Alexis Zahner: much harder for us to see it in context
[00:12:16] Dr Els van der Helm: bigger picture, to reframe and to
[00:12:19] Alexis Zahner: and to then regulate
[00:12:21] Dr Els van der Helm: the emotions that we're
[00:12:22] Alexis Zahner: that
[00:12:23] Dr Els van der Helm: So I. We're much easier to lash
[00:12:26] Alexis Zahner: to lash.
[00:12:27] Dr Els van der Helm: at someone. We're much less patient. In fact, we even see that when
[00:12:32] Alexis Zahner: That.
[00:12:32] Dr Els van der Helm: have not had a good night of sleep, their team rates them as more abusive in their leadership style the next day. Um, and it's, it's very easy to see, you know, why that happens when we don't, um, when we don't get good sleep.
[00:12:48] Alexis Zahner: ELs. I wonder in your experience, um, I think lack of sleep is something that I experienced a lot of, particularly in my young career. I was very much in a hustle culture style environment, and I certainly felt myself to be, I. Now in retrospect, quite an irritable, um, quick to kind of anger, very reactive person, um, especially dealing with a lot of sort of, um, challenges as well.
[00:13:12] In your experience, do you find that it's actually difficult for leaders to nail down where this emotional reactivity is coming from? Do they even look at sleep as potentially being a factor, or do you find in your experience, it takes them a while to actually come to that as being a contributor?
[00:13:30] Dr Els van der Helm: Yeah, it
[00:13:31] Alexis Zahner: Yeah.
[00:13:31] Usually takes them a while it comes to that. Yeah. Um,
[00:13:35] Dr Els van der Helm: and it's
[00:13:36] Alexis Zahner: and it's interesting because people
[00:13:38] Dr Els van der Helm: who I see who have
[00:13:40] Alexis Zahner: have already been on board with this for a long time.
[00:13:44] Dr Els van der Helm: are usually people who are
[00:13:46] Alexis Zahner: are
[00:13:47] Dr Els van der Helm: fanatic about sports and. a sport where they
[00:13:52] Alexis Zahner: where they measure performance.
[00:13:55] Dr Els van der Helm: So what I mean with that is that I think for a lot of
[00:13:57] Alexis Zahner: For a lot of people, this connection between sleep they come functioning remains really abstract,
[00:14:03] Dr Els van der Helm: they see
[00:14:04] Alexis Zahner: but when they see the numbers it becomes really clear.
[00:14:07] Dr Els van der Helm: and.
[00:14:07] Alexis Zahner: Um, and
[00:14:09] Dr Els van der Helm: top
[00:14:09] Alexis Zahner: top athletes
[00:14:10] Dr Els van der Helm: are usually very well
[00:14:12] Alexis Zahner: very well aware
[00:14:13] Dr Els van der Helm: of sleep because they see this immediately in their day-to-day
[00:14:15] Alexis Zahner: day to day data. Yeah. People who
[00:14:17] Dr Els van der Helm: fanatic about running marathons, um, or swimming, right, all of these timed sports usually have already kind of more of a.
[00:14:27] Connection to the importance of sleep because they've seen the data. The
[00:14:30] Alexis Zahner: Yeah. Second group that I see are
[00:14:33] Dr Els van der Helm: have started
[00:14:33] Alexis Zahner: people have started to use this factor
[00:14:35] Dr Els van der Helm: And
[00:14:36] Alexis Zahner: and.
[00:14:36] Dr Els van der Helm: it's numbers. They get this feedback in terms of numbers and have an easier time linking their behavior now, um, to their poor sleep.
[00:14:47] Sally Clarke: Amazing else. So once leaders. Have this awareness that their sleep or lack of
[00:14:51] Alexis Zahner: Of
[00:14:51] Sally Clarke: is
[00:14:51] Alexis Zahner: having such a profound
[00:14:53] Sally Clarke: on themselves, their leadership and sort of seeing how, how, how far this really reaches. What are some tips that we can use that we can apply And it, it'd be great if it could also be sort of fairly broadly applicable because for example, Alexis and I are both morning people.
[00:15:08] Um, but we also know quite a lot of people who are definitely night owls. What can we do irrespective of our, sort of our needs for sleep to really start to drive healthy sleep that really has that restorative impact on our bodies and minds.
[00:15:22] Dr Els van der Helm: it's a great question. And you know, the first thing, um, that I usually say is prioritized consistency. so go to bed and wake up at the same time. Every day, even on weekends, um, because your biological clock doesn't know what a weekend is, right? So, so far we've, we've spoken about sleep, but the other kind of
[00:15:45] Alexis Zahner: Kind of
[00:15:45] Dr Els van der Helm: of
[00:15:46] Alexis Zahner: half the story.
[00:15:47] Dr Els van der Helm: our biological clock. And
[00:15:49] Alexis Zahner: Yeah.
[00:15:49] Dr Els van der Helm: clock in every single cell of our body.
[00:15:52] Alexis Zahner: Body
[00:15:53] Dr Els van der Helm: what
[00:15:53] Alexis Zahner: and what it's trying to use
[00:15:56] Dr Els van der Helm: And
[00:15:57] Alexis Zahner: and help us anticipate what,
[00:15:59] Dr Els van der Helm: happen
[00:16:00] Alexis Zahner: happen
[00:16:00] Dr Els van der Helm: So for
[00:16:01] Alexis Zahner: that, so for instance,
[00:16:02] Dr Els van der Helm: we have
[00:16:03] Alexis Zahner: have CLOs
[00:16:04] Dr Els van der Helm: um, our gut
[00:16:05] Alexis Zahner: our
[00:16:05] Dr Els van der Helm: try to
[00:16:05] Alexis Zahner: that try to
[00:16:06] Dr Els van der Helm: eat. Um, the clocks in our brain
[00:16:08] Alexis Zahner: in our brain
[00:16:09] Dr Els van der Helm: predict when we'll go to sleep.
[00:16:10] Um, the clocks in our
[00:16:12] Alexis Zahner: in.
[00:16:12] Dr Els van der Helm: um, will be attuned to when we'll be sleeping so that we're not gonna produce a bunch of urine and then we don't have to wake up
[00:16:19] Alexis Zahner: Make five mm
[00:16:21] Dr Els van der Helm: and. Our bodies
[00:16:24] Alexis Zahner: bodies function the best way
[00:16:26] Dr Els van der Helm: we have
[00:16:27] Alexis Zahner: we not basically as much routine
[00:16:28] Dr Els van der Helm: as
[00:16:29] Alexis Zahner: as possible.
[00:16:30] Dr Els van der Helm: then we're right
[00:16:31] Alexis Zahner: Right on cue for everything happening in body. Why so important is that
[00:16:36] Dr Els van der Helm: cannot
[00:16:37] Alexis Zahner: cannot multitask,
[00:16:38] Dr Els van der Helm: um, can only do so
[00:16:40] Alexis Zahner: do
[00:16:40] Dr Els van der Helm: time, so
[00:16:42] Alexis Zahner: so.
[00:16:42] Dr Els van der Helm: instance, does all of this repair while we're asleep, um, and
[00:16:46] Alexis Zahner: Um,
[00:16:46] Dr Els van der Helm: work
[00:16:47] Alexis Zahner: all the work. All we're awake.
[00:16:49] Dr Els van der Helm: um,
[00:16:49] Alexis Zahner: Um, and, and all of these
[00:16:51] Dr Els van der Helm: are connected
[00:16:52] Alexis Zahner: are
[00:16:52] Dr Els van der Helm: other so we can help.
[00:16:54] Alexis Zahner: mm, now
[00:16:54] Dr Els van der Helm: just
[00:16:55] Alexis Zahner: not just one rhythm
[00:16:56] Dr Els van der Helm: our
[00:16:56] Alexis Zahner: that helps our sleep wakefulness,
[00:16:58] Dr Els van der Helm: of these
[00:16:58] Alexis Zahner: all of these human rhythms in our body by keeping it.
[00:17:02] Dr Els van der Helm: The issue
[00:17:03] Alexis Zahner: The issue though is when I think that is that
[00:17:06] Dr Els van der Helm: people
[00:17:06] Alexis Zahner: most people,
[00:17:07] Dr Els van der Helm: well, what's
[00:17:08] Alexis Zahner: what's.
[00:17:08] Dr Els van der Helm: time for me? Right. What, when you say go to bed at the same time, what is then the
[00:17:13] Alexis Zahner: What is that the best time? So what a most powerful way that optimize their sleep is by understanding.
[00:17:20] Dr Els van der Helm: So you were already mentioning, um, that you both know that
[00:17:24] Alexis Zahner: Know that you're,
[00:17:25] Dr Els van der Helm: and that's
[00:17:25] Alexis Zahner: and that's really important because
[00:17:28] Dr Els van der Helm: This
[00:17:28] Alexis Zahner: this natural
[00:17:29] Dr Els van der Helm: rhythm basically dictates the best
[00:17:32] Alexis Zahner: best time.
[00:17:33] Dr Els van der Helm: activities, um, such as when to get light, when to exercise, when to eat, when to
[00:17:39] Alexis Zahner: When line down in the evening. Um,
[00:17:41] Dr Els van der Helm: so your chronotype,
[00:17:42] Alexis Zahner: prototype, um,
[00:17:43] Dr Els van der Helm: Is really, really
[00:17:44] Alexis Zahner: is really, really important. And
[00:17:46] Dr Els van der Helm: work
[00:17:46] Alexis Zahner: work with organizations
[00:17:48] Dr Els van der Helm: individual
[00:17:49] Alexis Zahner: individual their own prototype, um,
[00:17:50] Dr Els van der Helm: um, uh,
[00:17:52] Alexis Zahner: uh, guide. So we have a tool
[00:17:54] Dr Els van der Helm: complete a short
[00:17:55] Alexis Zahner: complete short assessment
[00:17:56] Dr Els van der Helm: we
[00:17:56] Alexis Zahner: and
[00:17:57] Dr Els van der Helm: own guide to
[00:17:58] Alexis Zahner: guide.
[00:17:59] Dr Els van der Helm: not just these are your optimal sleep times, but also what are the implications of that for
[00:18:04] Alexis Zahner: Your
[00:18:05] Dr Els van der Helm: day, because.
[00:18:06] Alexis Zahner: Mm.
[00:18:06] Dr Els van der Helm: Not everybody
[00:18:07] Alexis Zahner: everybody
[00:18:08] Dr Els van der Helm: at
[00:18:08] Alexis Zahner: feels great at 8:00 AM or 9:00 AM versus
[00:18:11] Dr Els van der Helm: PM or
[00:18:11] Alexis Zahner: PM or 9:00 PM
[00:18:13] Dr Els van der Helm: Um, and that has a
[00:18:14] Alexis Zahner: And that has a really
[00:18:15] Dr Els van der Helm: impact
[00:18:15] Alexis Zahner: impact on your health, your energy during.
[00:18:19] Dr Els van der Helm: Um, so I
[00:18:20] Alexis Zahner: So I think, you know,
[00:18:21] Dr Els van der Helm: this consistency, you really wanna
[00:18:23] Alexis Zahner: wanna make sure that
[00:18:24] Dr Els van der Helm: Time it
[00:18:25] Alexis Zahner: the time is well. So,
[00:18:26] Dr Els van der Helm: example,
[00:18:27] Alexis Zahner: example, you both are.
[00:18:29] Dr Els van der Helm: chronotypes. Then you really want to front load your day with the important tasks and ensure that you get
[00:18:35] Alexis Zahner: That you get bright light morning
[00:18:38] Dr Els van der Helm: late
[00:18:38] Alexis Zahner: for,
[00:18:39] Dr Els van der Helm: it's really
[00:18:40] Alexis Zahner: it's really about managing
[00:18:41] Dr Els van der Helm: the evening, avoiding
[00:18:43] Alexis Zahner: avoiding late night meals,
[00:18:45] Dr Els van der Helm: Um. Better sleep. And when you can incorporate
[00:18:48] Alexis Zahner: incorporate some of that
[00:18:49] Dr Els van der Helm: daily routines and then
[00:18:52] Alexis Zahner: and.
[00:18:52] Dr Els van der Helm: it with this consistency in sleep and wake times, then you can really boost your,
[00:18:57] Alexis Zahner: Your
[00:18:58] Dr Els van der Helm: sleep quality and your
[00:18:59] Alexis Zahner: at your level and else what role do you see technology playing in our quality of sleep and what tips might you have around us managing that impact?
[00:19:10] Dr Els van der Helm: Yeah, so I
[00:19:11] Alexis Zahner: Yeah, so I think technology can be great
[00:19:15] Dr Els van der Helm: and it
[00:19:15] Alexis Zahner: and.
[00:19:16] Dr Els van der Helm: hurt our sleep and it really depends, um,
[00:19:19] Alexis Zahner: On context.
[00:19:19] Dr Els van der Helm: So
[00:19:20] Alexis Zahner: So
[00:19:20] Dr Els van der Helm: say
[00:19:21] Alexis Zahner: when you say technology,
[00:19:22] Dr Els van der Helm: kind
[00:19:22] Alexis Zahner: what kind of comes into your mind? For me, I think the first thing is smartphones.
[00:19:27] That is, I will admit, um, the thing that I have to monitor the most in terms of getting it away at the right time of day.
[00:19:35] Sally Clarke: Same here.
[00:19:36] Alexis Zahner: Yeah, I think most people,
[00:19:38] Dr Els van der Helm: Yeah.
[00:19:39] Alexis Zahner: yeah,
[00:19:39] Dr Els van der Helm: um, there's quite some, some research now on this. Um, and it is
[00:19:45] Alexis Zahner: It's
[00:19:45] Dr Els van der Helm: important to
[00:19:46] Alexis Zahner: important to understand good nuance
[00:19:49] Dr Els van der Helm: around
[00:19:49] Alexis Zahner: around this because
[00:19:50] Dr Els van der Helm: use isn't the
[00:19:52] Alexis Zahner: isn't the same, um, for everybody.
[00:19:55] Dr Els van der Helm: Um,
[00:19:55] Alexis Zahner: Um,
[00:19:56] Dr Els van der Helm: every
[00:19:56] Alexis Zahner: even every single time. Right. Depend
[00:19:58] Dr Els van der Helm: you are
[00:19:59] Alexis Zahner: you're doing.
[00:20:00] Dr Els van der Helm: on this
[00:20:00] Alexis Zahner: on,
[00:20:01] Dr Els van der Helm: So, um, to give you an
[00:20:02] Alexis Zahner: give an example.
[00:20:03] Dr Els van der Helm: you are
[00:20:03] Alexis Zahner: If you're someone who, um,
[00:20:06] Dr Els van der Helm: Had a really
[00:20:06] Alexis Zahner: had a really stressful day and
[00:20:09] Dr Els van der Helm: still have these
[00:20:10] Alexis Zahner: you still have these high stress and.
[00:20:11] Dr Els van der Helm: really want to unwind, but. You don't really
[00:20:16] Alexis Zahner: You don't really have, um,
[00:20:17] Dr Els van der Helm: ways,
[00:20:18] Alexis Zahner: ways,
[00:20:19] Dr Els van der Helm: to
[00:20:19] Alexis Zahner: you know, to relax. Maybe you kind of have it developed the whole
[00:20:23] Dr Els van der Helm: of,
[00:20:24] Alexis Zahner: of,
[00:20:24] Dr Els van der Helm: know, meditation
[00:20:25] Alexis Zahner: meditation exercises or breathing exercises, or yoga
[00:20:29] Dr Els van der Helm: or
[00:20:29] Alexis Zahner: or stretching, or
[00:20:30] Dr Els van der Helm: you
[00:20:30] Alexis Zahner: things that you really don't like and that you
[00:20:32] Dr Els van der Helm: do in the evening. Um, if you then suddenly stick to really strict advice on don't touch your
[00:20:39] Alexis Zahner: don't
[00:20:39] Dr Els van der Helm: or don't watch TV, or
[00:20:41] Alexis Zahner: tv.
[00:20:41] Dr Els van der Helm: that, you might actually
[00:20:43] Alexis Zahner: might actually really start to ruminate about everything that happened today.
[00:20:47] Dr Els van der Helm: start
[00:20:47] Alexis Zahner: Mm. Or you start worrying about what happened tomorrow
[00:20:50] Dr Els van der Helm: you're just
[00:20:50] Alexis Zahner: and you're just perpetuating
[00:20:52] Dr Els van der Helm: of
[00:20:52] Alexis Zahner: levels of stress
[00:20:54] Dr Els van der Helm: In this situation,
[00:20:55] Alexis Zahner: situation. It might actually really help you to use technology to help you
[00:20:59] Dr Els van der Helm: Um, maybe you just wanna watch,
[00:21:01] Alexis Zahner: wanna,
[00:21:01] Dr Els van der Helm: of
[00:21:02] Alexis Zahner: you know, one of your favorite TV
[00:21:03] Dr Els van der Helm: of
[00:21:04] Alexis Zahner: shows, kind of lighthearted.
[00:21:06] Dr Els van der Helm: funny, um, that really lets, I. Your brain and your body. No, we're
[00:21:11] Alexis Zahner: We're,
[00:21:13] Dr Els van der Helm: You know, the
[00:21:14] Alexis Zahner: you know, the work is done,
[00:21:15] Dr Els van der Helm: relax, we can
[00:21:17] Alexis Zahner: we cannot unwin.
[00:21:18] Dr Els van der Helm: so when I
[00:21:18] Alexis Zahner: So when I say, you know, unwind,
[00:21:20] Dr Els van der Helm: mean
[00:21:21] Alexis Zahner: mean that we cannot use technology. Mm.
[00:21:24] Dr Els van der Helm: um, to give you another
[00:21:25] Alexis Zahner: Give you another example. Um,
[00:21:27] Dr Els van der Helm: I really
[00:21:28] Alexis Zahner: I really love the show
[00:21:30] Dr Els van der Helm: but at some point
[00:21:31] Alexis Zahner: at some point,
[00:21:32] Dr Els van der Helm: that. If I was watching that in the evening, it would just get me so tense. 'cause I really get into the show and I imagine that I'm there and that, you know, I'm about to get caught or killed or, um, and it just gets me
[00:21:46] Alexis Zahner: Just gets me all out.
[00:21:48] Dr Els van der Helm: I might have nightmares
[00:21:49] Alexis Zahner: I nightmare at. Mm.
[00:21:50] Dr Els van der Helm: Okay. Not a good use of technology.
[00:21:54] Alexis Zahner: Yeah.
[00:21:55] Dr Els van der Helm: um, you know, I'm, I'm watching a show with my husband and we just get so into the show that my husband will say. Let's watch another episode,
[00:22:04] Alexis Zahner: One more. Yeah.
[00:22:05] Dr Els van der Helm: then the issue is that you are not, um, you're getting so
[00:22:08] Alexis Zahner: You're getting so engaged.
[00:22:10] Dr Els van der Helm: all of
[00:22:10] Alexis Zahner: Course all these apps are
[00:22:12] Dr Els van der Helm: right, to
[00:22:12] Alexis Zahner: for that, right?
[00:22:13] Dr Els van der Helm: So you're getting
[00:22:14] Alexis Zahner: So you're getting really engaged, but at the same time you're not noticing
[00:22:17] Dr Els van der Helm: starting
[00:22:18] Alexis Zahner: you're starting to get mm.
[00:22:19] Dr Els van der Helm: Um,
[00:22:20] Alexis Zahner: Um, and then
[00:22:21] Dr Els van der Helm: what we
[00:22:22] Alexis Zahner: you see what call sleep,
[00:22:24] Dr Els van der Helm: where
[00:22:24] Alexis Zahner: where you'll continue to watch.
[00:22:27] Dr Els van der Helm: gets displaced until later. Um, so my point is that there's really great ways to use technology and really poor ways.
[00:22:34] To use technology and it's all about realizing what
[00:22:38] Alexis Zahner: what really helped you.
[00:22:40] Dr Els van der Helm: unwind in the evening. And it doesn't have to be, you know, a 20 minute meditation session if that's just not what you're into. And also if that's just not what you're gonna do every single night.
[00:22:52] Sally Clarke: Such
[00:22:52] Alexis Zahner: That's great advice.
[00:22:53] Sally Clarke: I think just really
[00:22:54] Alexis Zahner: Really bringing approach
[00:22:55] Sally Clarke: approach
[00:22:55] Alexis Zahner: to
[00:22:56] Sally Clarke: technology is really key here and I think I love that. You also mentioned this idea of. Sleep displacement because I think, you know, we've also heard of the concept of like revenge,
[00:23:05] Alexis Zahner: bedtime.
[00:23:06] Sally Clarke: this kind of idea of
[00:23:08] Dr Els van der Helm: Yes.
[00:23:08] Sally Clarke: somehow getting some time to ourself in the evening.
[00:23:10] So
[00:23:10] Alexis Zahner: Yeah.
[00:23:11] Sally Clarke: be mindful of what outcome we're looking from that experience and maybe sub on something doesn't necessarily have to be, like you said, like a half hour of meditation, but finding something that's just that bit healthier. And it
[00:23:21] Alexis Zahner: It does
[00:23:21] Sally Clarke: closer to calming our nervous system and our brain rather
[00:23:26] Alexis Zahner: than activating it.
[00:23:27] Sally Clarke: Um,
[00:23:28] Alexis Zahner: Um.
[00:23:28] Sally Clarke: really helpful advice. And just curious on that note, like have you seen, have you seen sort of leaders who've implemented these and maybe there's a specific example you can share of someone who's gone from fairly
[00:23:41] Alexis Zahner: probably
[00:23:42] Sally Clarke: sleep to
[00:23:42] Alexis Zahner: to actually,
[00:23:43] Sally Clarke: sort of radically transforming that for themselves?
[00:23:45] Dr Els van der Helm: Yeah, well, so,
[00:23:46] Alexis Zahner: Well, so, um,
[00:23:47] Dr Els van der Helm: my
[00:23:48] Alexis Zahner: one of my clients
[00:23:49] Dr Els van der Helm: prone
[00:23:50] Alexis Zahner: proud to sleep displacement
[00:23:52] Dr Els van der Helm: And,
[00:23:53] Alexis Zahner: and, um, it was not just, you know, getting hooked onto a show,
[00:23:57] Dr Els van der Helm: but it was
[00:23:57] Alexis Zahner: but it was also
[00:23:59] Dr Els van der Helm: having
[00:23:59] Alexis Zahner: still having to do.
[00:24:00] Dr Els van der Helm: or wanting to do, not having to do, wanting to do bunch of tasks in the evening so that whenever he would always
[00:24:08] Alexis Zahner: He would have this goal instance in
[00:24:10] Dr Els van der Helm: bed by
[00:24:10] Alexis Zahner: bed by 11,
[00:24:11] Dr Els van der Helm: would just
[00:24:11] Alexis Zahner: but he would just never reach that goal.
[00:24:13] Dr Els van der Helm: the time
[00:24:14] Alexis Zahner: Mm. By the time it was 11,
[00:24:15] Dr Els van der Helm: near
[00:24:16] Alexis Zahner: near
[00:24:17] Dr Els van der Helm: with a
[00:24:18] Alexis Zahner: with a day or ready
[00:24:19] Dr Els van der Helm: So it
[00:24:19] Alexis Zahner: bed.
[00:24:20] Dr Els van der Helm: ended up being later. and then what he did is he started to set three
[00:24:24] Alexis Zahner: Three different alarms.
[00:24:26] Dr Els van der Helm: um, in his phone where the first
[00:24:29] Alexis Zahner: The first one.
[00:24:30] Dr Els van der Helm: like a slight heads up. You know, um, let's, let's stop watching what we're watching.
[00:24:36] Let's turn the TV off. Let's start our
[00:24:38] Alexis Zahner: Let's start our preparation. Um,
[00:24:41] Dr Els van der Helm: the,
[00:24:41] Alexis Zahner: then the, the second alarm was, okay, this is when I wanna be,
[00:24:45] Dr Els van der Helm: um, and start,
[00:24:46] Alexis Zahner: start meditation.
[00:24:49] Dr Els van der Helm: or journaling or, or whatever. And then the really final alarm was, okay, now I'm gonna, uh, turn the lights off. So that's a really
[00:24:57] Alexis Zahner: That's a really great.
[00:24:58] Dr Els van der Helm: example, but I do think it is good to think through your schedule in the
[00:25:04] Alexis Zahner: schedule in the evening and how long it takes you to get from this house into bed and
[00:25:09] Dr Els van der Helm: and all the little
[00:25:10] Alexis Zahner: all of all things that you still have to do in community else. What I find so fascinating about what you're saying is that I see so much of my self in these stories, especially I think my former self and. I think what's quite interesting is the relationship that especially leaders and a lot of high achievers have with sleep, and I think there's a big piece of this around sort of reframing what sleep means to us and how necessary it is because it does feel sometimes counterproductive to productivity.
[00:25:45] In the example you've just mentioned, obviously a leader who's got all of these things to do on a tick list and yet. We always seem to leave sleep off the tick list, especially if we're people who do have so many goals and ambitious things happening in their lives. Is this something you see so prevalent with the people you work with?
[00:26:02] Dr Els van der Helm: Yes.
[00:26:03] Alexis Zahner: Yes.
[00:26:03] Dr Els van der Helm: and I, I think a major part of that is that a lot of
[00:26:08] Alexis Zahner: A lot of high achievers struggle.
[00:26:10] Dr Els van der Helm: what I
[00:26:11] Alexis Zahner: What I.
[00:26:11] Dr Els van der Helm: goodbye to the day. And accepting that today is over, and then
[00:26:19] Alexis Zahner: Over. And then really kind of judging themselves on
[00:26:22] Dr Els van der Helm: did I
[00:26:22] Alexis Zahner: what did I get done today
[00:26:24] Dr Els van der Helm: it
[00:26:24] Alexis Zahner: and was it enough and what did I wanna get done today?
[00:26:27] Dr Els van der Helm: Um,
[00:26:28] Alexis Zahner: Um,
[00:26:28] Dr Els van der Helm: you
[00:26:28] Alexis Zahner: and then you really get into this negative spiral where
[00:26:32] Dr Els van der Helm: yourself
[00:26:32] Alexis Zahner: yourself finish more today. But
[00:26:35] Dr Els van der Helm: is
[00:26:35] Alexis Zahner: what happens is that you end up going bed later, you.
[00:26:38] Dr Els van der Helm: sleep, you're getting worse
[00:26:39] Alexis Zahner: First quality sleep,
[00:26:41] Dr Els van der Helm: unwinding in the
[00:26:41] Alexis Zahner: winding in the evening
[00:26:43] Dr Els van der Helm: you
[00:26:43] Alexis Zahner: that makes you less productive.
[00:26:44] The next day you might be interacting with more heavy,
[00:26:48] Dr Els van der Helm: and
[00:26:48] Alexis Zahner: um, and you're just dragging yourself more into this negative spiral because that's kind of
[00:26:53] Dr Els van der Helm: sleep
[00:26:53] Alexis Zahner: your sleep quality the next night.
[00:26:55] Dr Els van der Helm: And it's also gonna
[00:26:56] Alexis Zahner: And it's also gonna reduce your sleepiness, um, in the evening. So you, you know, trying
[00:26:59] Dr Els van der Helm: know, try to get even
[00:27:00] Alexis Zahner: to get
[00:27:01] Dr Els van der Helm: that same
[00:27:01] Alexis Zahner: done.
[00:27:02] Dr Els van der Helm: But then what happens is
[00:27:03] Alexis Zahner: happens
[00:27:03] Dr Els van der Helm: as we start to
[00:27:04] Alexis Zahner: Start to build, um, the sleep death from one, you
[00:27:08] Dr Els van der Helm: day
[00:27:08] Alexis Zahner: know, one day to the next
[00:27:09] Dr Els van der Helm: we're becoming
[00:27:10] Alexis Zahner: we're becoming less productive.
[00:27:12] Dr Els van der Helm: but
[00:27:12] Alexis Zahner: Um,
[00:27:12] Dr Els van der Helm: often
[00:27:13] Alexis Zahner: often don't realize
[00:27:14] Dr Els van der Helm: we are
[00:27:15] Alexis Zahner: that we're less productive and that our performance,
[00:27:18] Dr Els van der Helm: particularly with this chronic sleep deprivation. Right. So a lot of
[00:27:22] Alexis Zahner: so a lot of people will speak almost about
[00:27:24] Dr Els van der Helm: about the days that
[00:27:25] Alexis Zahner: the days that they.
[00:27:26] Dr Els van der Helm: when they were younger, and how they seem to cope really well. Well, I can assure you
[00:27:31] Alexis Zahner: You
[00:27:31] Dr Els van der Helm: dozens of studies
[00:27:32] Alexis Zahner: studies
[00:27:33] Dr Els van der Helm: at sleep deprivation and
[00:27:35] Alexis Zahner: in
[00:27:35] Dr Els van der Helm: 20
[00:27:36] Alexis Zahner: Yeah. 20-year-old.
[00:27:37] Dr Els van der Helm: are usually the
[00:27:38] Alexis Zahner: Usually the
[00:27:38] Dr Els van der Helm: um, in the sleep studies and
[00:27:41] Alexis Zahner: and their performance
[00:27:42] Dr Els van der Helm: takes a really big
[00:27:44] Alexis Zahner: big.
[00:27:45] Dr Els van der Helm: what happens is when you blind them to their own performance and
[00:27:48] Alexis Zahner: Performance. You ask them, how are you doing? And how are you feeling?
[00:27:52] Dr Els van der Helm: say,
[00:27:52] Alexis Zahner: He'll say, oh, I'm fine.
[00:27:54] Dr Els van der Helm: Oh, I'm not
[00:27:54] Alexis Zahner: Oh, I'm not even complete.
[00:27:56] Dr Els van der Helm: pretty good.
[00:27:57] Alexis Zahner: Pretty good.
[00:27:57] Dr Els van der Helm: there's this
[00:27:58] Alexis Zahner: This huge disconnect,
[00:28:00] Dr Els van der Helm: how we
[00:28:01] Alexis Zahner: how we think we're doing and how we're actually doing
[00:28:04] Dr Els van der Helm: we're
[00:28:04] Alexis Zahner: when we're,
[00:28:05] Dr Els van der Helm: And it takes really
[00:28:07] Alexis Zahner: really often a reset for people
[00:28:10] Dr Els van der Helm: say,
[00:28:10] Alexis Zahner: to say, you know what?
[00:28:12] Dr Els van der Helm: I believe this
[00:28:13] Alexis Zahner: I.
[00:28:13] Dr Els van der Helm: about sleep helping my performance, I'm gonna, you know, amp up the sleep and I'm just gonna
[00:28:20] Alexis Zahner: And I'm just gonna see happens
[00:28:22] Dr Els van der Helm: And then
[00:28:23] Alexis Zahner: then
[00:28:24] Dr Els van der Helm: time
[00:28:24] Alexis Zahner: every time people realize that
[00:28:26] Dr Els van der Helm: You know, they're working so much more
[00:28:27] Alexis Zahner: so much more
[00:28:28] Dr Els van der Helm: and more effectively, um, that it is
[00:28:31] Alexis Zahner: that
[00:28:31] Dr Els van der Helm: good return on investment to spend more time on their
[00:28:36] Alexis Zahner: time.
[00:28:37] Dr Els van der Helm: and preparing for sleep versus getting three more things, um, done off of their checklist.
[00:28:44] Sally Clarke: Else. I feel like you just gave a sort of a blow by blow description of my life as a corporate
[00:28:48] Alexis Zahner: As a corporate lawyer, yeah.
[00:28:50] Sally Clarke: self narrative of really, I'm killing it. I'm getting so much done, and how. really strong that was in my head. Really pervasive and not only for me, but for so many of the people that I work with.
[00:29:00] So I think, you know, it really for me highlights how when leaders start to Shane change the narrative and to take ownership of their impact as you know, their own of sleep on their own performance, but also talking about it among their teams and really bringing this focus to it that we can start to break through this idea of. Less sleep better, more sleep bad, and and
[00:29:19] Alexis Zahner: Yeah.
[00:29:19] Sally Clarke: to a healthy understanding of how it impacts us as individuals and as a team.
[00:29:24] Dr Els van der Helm: Yeah. Yeah,
[00:29:25] Alexis Zahner: Yeah.
[00:29:26] Dr Els van der Helm: and I
[00:29:26] Alexis Zahner: Yeah. And I mean, and I recognize this too, right? I,
[00:29:28] Dr Els van der Helm: I was working
[00:29:30] Alexis Zahner: yeah.
[00:29:31] Dr Els van der Helm: like really long
[00:29:32] Alexis Zahner: Really long days on sexual projects. And I also understand
[00:29:35] Dr Els van der Helm: this
[00:29:36] Alexis Zahner: almost this addiction that comes
[00:29:38] Dr Els van der Helm: because
[00:29:39] Alexis Zahner: because I remember the days where I felt that
[00:29:43] Dr Els van der Helm: five
[00:29:43] Alexis Zahner: every five minutes of my day needed.
[00:29:47] Dr Els van der Helm: because I just
[00:29:48] Alexis Zahner: Yeah, so
[00:29:49] Dr Els van der Helm: much on my plate.
[00:29:50] Alexis Zahner: plate and.
[00:29:51] Dr Els van der Helm: with that also came kind of this ego boost of, I'm so important for this project. You know, the time I spend on this project is so important. I'm needed, oh, I'm producing
[00:30:03] Alexis Zahner: I'm producing so much,
[00:30:05] Dr Els van der Helm: blah, blah.
[00:30:05] Alexis Zahner: blah, blah, blah.
[00:30:06] Dr Els van der Helm: it's
[00:30:06] Alexis Zahner: Um, it's very, very addictive.
[00:30:08] Dr Els van der Helm: You kind of get this.
[00:30:09] Alexis Zahner: Get this invincible feeling because of course I came from the sleep field and then suddenly I wasn't getting sleep that I needed. Um, and then I was also surprised that during the week
[00:30:21] Dr Els van der Helm: I could
[00:30:22] Alexis Zahner: I could
[00:30:23] Dr Els van der Helm: Right. I felt
[00:30:24] Alexis Zahner: Right. I felt like I was
[00:30:26] Dr Els van der Helm: getting so much done, so much. More than I
[00:30:29] Alexis Zahner: more.
[00:30:29] Dr Els van der Helm: could. Um, but I
[00:30:31] Alexis Zahner: Um, but I also know that a lot of that work wasn't
[00:30:34] Dr Els van der Helm: actually
[00:30:35] Alexis Zahner: yeah, high quality weren
[00:30:37] Dr Els van der Helm: Right. You
[00:30:38] Alexis Zahner: right?
[00:30:38] Dr Els van der Helm: prioritizing the important stuff. You
[00:30:41] Alexis Zahner: stuff. You just,
[00:30:42] Dr Els van der Helm: yourself
[00:30:42] Alexis Zahner: just tell yourself you need
[00:30:43] Dr Els van der Helm: and
[00:30:43] Alexis Zahner: to do x, y
[00:30:44] Dr Els van der Helm: do it
[00:30:45] Alexis Zahner: and do it
[00:30:46] Dr Els van der Helm: without a head. Like,
[00:30:47] Alexis Zahner: a
[00:30:47] Dr Els van der Helm: I'm just going to do this, and. anybody taking a step
[00:30:51] Alexis Zahner: taking and.
[00:30:52] Dr Els van der Helm: is this really what we should be doing?
[00:30:54] Is this the best way to do this? Will this actually lead to the impact? then on the weekends, I would just be a complete zombie. A complete zombie. Like it just felt like everything was
[00:31:05] Alexis Zahner: Everything low
[00:31:06] Dr Els van der Helm: and moving
[00:31:07] Alexis Zahner: and
[00:31:07] Dr Els van der Helm: and all
[00:31:08] Alexis Zahner: low, and all I could do was
[00:31:10] Dr Els van der Helm: Recover my body. Just
[00:31:12] Alexis Zahner: my body. Just sending all these signals like, yeah, you had maybe a bit more sleep last night, but you need even more.
[00:31:18] Dr Els van der Helm: take it easy.
[00:31:19] Alexis Zahner: it easy, it easy. Mm. And in the end, you know,
[00:31:21] Dr Els van der Helm: know, all you're then
[00:31:22] Alexis Zahner: all you're then doing is working really hard, depriving yourself and on the.
[00:31:26] Dr Els van der Helm: you're paying the price and trying to recover. Even though we know from
[00:31:31] Alexis Zahner: Even though we know from so many studies that two weekend days are not enough to recover from five, four weeks. Yeah. Um,
[00:31:38] Dr Els van der Helm: yeah, you,
[00:31:39] Alexis Zahner: so yeah,
[00:31:39] Dr Els van der Helm: easily get
[00:31:40] Alexis Zahner: even we get into that negative spiral else. I resonate with your experience so deeply. Um, personally, as someone who ran on such limited sleep, um, through my twenties, and it's interestingly something you don't.
[00:31:53] Know you're missing until you experience good sleep. At least in my experience. It wasn't until I started prioritizing sleep that I realized, wow, I, I have not even reached my anywhere close to my potential because I've not given my brain the opportunity to do so. Um, now else you have lived an interesting role professionally and personally, and.
[00:32:15] Being that you're from a management consultancy background as well, I'd love to know if you could give us a little bit of advice as to what leaders might be able to do within the workplace setting to help promote good sleep in their employees.
[00:32:31] Dr Els van der Helm: Yeah,
[00:32:31] Alexis Zahner: Yeah,
[00:32:32] Dr Els van der Helm: first thing
[00:32:32] Alexis Zahner: the
[00:32:32] Dr Els van der Helm: say
[00:32:33] Alexis Zahner: first thing I always say is start talking.
[00:32:34] Dr Els van der Helm: about it. a lot of leaders find this really difficult because they feel that sleep is this thing that you do in your own home, and it's very personal and I don't wanna mess with that. Um, but then you're completely foregoing all the facts. That actually sleep impacts work and work impacts sleep.
[00:32:55] So there's this bidirectional relationship. So actually it is something you need to talk about because the work might be designed in such a way that people cannot get good sleep, and if they cannot get good sleep, this is subsequently impacting their performance at work. And that is, you know, this is not about telling people get eight hours or sleep like this or sleep like that. Um, it is actually about acknowledging this bi-directional relationship and starting this conversation. And the conversation is always easier to start by. a bit more about yourself, right? How are you managing this? When do you know you're gonna have a really bad night of sleep? So what have you learned, um, to prevent that?
[00:33:41] Or what do you do after a really bad night of sleep? Are there ways. You know that you get through the day, um, in a different way because all have some of these learnings. You don't need to be a sleep expert and have perfect sleep in order to start talking about this and sharing some of your own experiences and critically empowering the people on your team.
[00:34:06] To make their own decisions and to trial and error for themselves to see what they really need and listen to what they need. Um, so when I work with teams, we have everyone, for instance, do the chronotype assessment and that already shares within, within a team that. Everybody's different and just creating this awareness that a morning type has a very different, like view of a day than an evening type. some of my, yeah, some of my clients are evening types and they really struggle because there is. Almost this taboo on being an evening type that
[00:34:46] Alexis Zahner: Yeah.
[00:34:47] Dr Els van der Helm: start work late, you are considered lazy. You're not a go-getter, right? The whole world is like designed, uh, for morning types and
[00:34:56] Alexis Zahner: And you wanna start this conversation. And
[00:34:59] Dr Els van der Helm: you start this
[00:34:59] Alexis Zahner: when you start this conversation,
[00:35:01] Dr Els van der Helm: the
[00:35:02] Alexis Zahner: when the leader acknowledges that,
[00:35:04] Dr Els van der Helm: just
[00:35:04] Alexis Zahner: know, maybe a little bit more flexibility
[00:35:07] Dr Els van der Helm: help,
[00:35:07] Alexis Zahner: to how um,
[00:35:09] Dr Els van der Helm: uh, types, um, on the team or when everybody, um, is experiencing their afternoon dip in their circadian
[00:35:17] Alexis Zahner: gave rhythm,
[00:35:18] Dr Els van der Helm: And with our tool,
[00:35:18] Alexis Zahner: and with our tool, you can know when in the day that is for you. And
[00:35:21] Dr Els van der Helm: a good time
[00:35:22] Alexis Zahner: that's a good time. Take break. Yeah.
[00:35:24] Dr Els van der Helm: an exercise or go
[00:35:25] Alexis Zahner: Time. Go for a walk, um, outside or just
[00:35:28] Dr Els van der Helm: a social
[00:35:29] Alexis Zahner: have a social meeting and call me. Um,
[00:35:31] Dr Els van der Helm: that's
[00:35:32] Alexis Zahner: so I think that's really important to start the conversation, um,
[00:35:36] Dr Els van der Helm: people
[00:35:37] Alexis Zahner: people when of course they really run into,
[00:35:39] Dr Els van der Helm: um, to train
[00:35:41] Alexis Zahner: train them on the, to
[00:35:42] Dr Els van der Helm: how to get good
[00:35:43] Alexis Zahner: get good
[00:35:44] Dr Els van der Helm: But the first
[00:35:45] Alexis Zahner: advice, first step to.
[00:35:46] Dr Els van der Helm: just speaking about it and showing that you value sleep. That means so much to your teams.
[00:35:55] Sally Clarke: Incredibly powerful words. Alison, I think, you know, we could talk about sleep all night.
[00:35:59] Alexis Zahner: All night coming.
[00:36:00] Sally Clarke: PM Australian time though, so we will start our, our wind down ritual shortly,
[00:36:05] Alexis Zahner: Yeah.
[00:36:06] Sally Clarke: we'd love to just hear from you
[00:36:08] Alexis Zahner: You.
[00:36:08] Sally Clarke: of the final words. What is one thing about sleep that you would like everyone listening to know right now?
[00:36:14] Dr Els van der Helm: Yeah, so really see sleep as the most often overlooked tool in a leader's toolkit, right? We, we think about all these things that leaders need to do and need to be able to do, blah, blah, blah. But sleep is really the foundation, not only for personal health, but also for organizational success. And if we want to perform at our peak, we need to embrace that power of sleep.
[00:36:39] And you know, usually I find that numbers
[00:36:41] Alexis Zahner: find that.
[00:36:42] Dr Els van der Helm: So to give you an example, a study found that for a typical employer with a thousand employees,
[00:36:49] Alexis Zahner: Employee.
[00:36:49] Dr Els van der Helm: can lose more than $1 million a year due due to fatigue related costs. So the breakdown of
[00:36:56] Alexis Zahner: Wow.
[00:36:57] Dr Els van der Helm: is that it's $270,000 from absenteeism. So people calling in sick. $770,000 from presenteeism. So people actually showing up at work but tired, not getting their work done, making mistakes. Um, and finally, um, over $500,000 from healthcare expenses. Um, we didn't touch upon this so much yet, but if you don't get good sleep, you're much more likely to get sick, to get injured, to have an accident, et cetera. so that really demonstrate this. Super tangible, bottom line benefit of a sleep positive culture. I just wanna emphasize that if you're not addressing sleep, you are already paying a price. You, you're just often not aware of it.
[00:37:48] Alexis Zahner: ELs. Thank you so much for being with us and we are human leaders. This has been a truly illuminating conversation on sleep, and we are very grateful to share this space with you. Thank you.
[00:37:58] Dr Els van der Helm: Thank you,
[00:37:59] Alexis Zahner: Thank you.
[00:38:00] Dr Els van der Helm: having me. And if I can make a quick shout out, um, I, I share a lot of my advice on LinkedIn and I have a monthly newsletter with really practical science-based tips. So if people wanna know more, uh, I would say look me up on LinkedIn and, and sign up for my newsletter.
[00:38:16] Sally Clarke: We will share all the links in the show notes too. Thank you
[00:38:19] Dr Els van der Helm: Perfect.
[00:38:20] Sally Clarke: It's just really powerful.
[00:38:21] Dr Els van der Helm: Thanks for having.