Fierce Yet Kind: The Power of Self-Compassion with Amy Finlay-Jones
Amy Finlay-Jones Ph.D. - Associate Professor, Therapist and Contemplative Practice Facilitator
Amy is an Associate Professor, therapist, and contemplative practice facilitator who is dedicated to helping others cultivate more balanced, connected, and meaningful lives through compassion and mindfulness practice. She is a skilled group facilitator with over 10 years of experience delivering mindfulness- and compassion-based approaches in clinical, community, and organisational settings.
Amy’s teaching draws on many years of personal practice, her passion for social justice and activism, as well as her lived experience of long-term chronic illness. She founded Kindful in 2015 to support the cultivation of compassion as a means of creating positive change in the world.
The term self compassion has evolved from a concept that lurked at the fringes of leadership, right into the mainstream of what it means to be a modern leader. And research shows it’s an essential attribute for all leaders who want to create healthy work environments and experience more fulfilment in life.
In this episode we’re talking to global expert Amy Finlay Jones to learn why self-compassion is much more than a buzzword – and how to ensure cultivating self-compassion is not another stressful ‘to do’ but an empowering, practical and evolving journey.
Amy is an Associate Professor, therapist, and contemplative practice facilitator who is dedicated to helping others cultivate more balanced, connected, and meaningful lives through compassion and mindfulness practice.
Amy’s teaching draws on many years of personal practice, her passion for social justice and activism, and her lived experience of long-term chronic illness. She founded Kindful in 2015 to support the cultivation of compassion as a means of creating positive change in the world.
Amy is involved in ongoing research that investigates the effects of compassion training on intra- and interpersonal wellbeing. She has developed several self-compassion training programs, and is the lead editor of the Handbook of Self-Compassion.
We’ve wanted to bring this topic to We Are Human Leaders for a long time, now let's dive in!
Learn more about Amy Finlay-Jones:
Amy is a certified Compassion Cultivation Training (CCT) facilitator and a trained Mindful Self-Compassion (MSC) teacher, and trained at Stanford University and through the Center for Mindful Self-Compassion to deliver these programs. She is also trained to teach the Mindfulness Based Compassionate Living program and the Mindful Self-Compassion for Teens program.
Amy holds Masters degrees in Clinical Psychology and Health Economics and a PhD in Clinical Psychology. She is involved in ongoing research that investigates the effects of compassion training on intra- and interpersonal wellbeing. She has developed several online self-compassion training programs, and is the lead editor of the Handbook of Self-Compassion.
Find more about Amy and Kindful here.
Episode Transcript:
Important Chapters in this episode:
00:00 Introduction to Self Compassion in Leadership
01:35 Meet Amy Finlay Jones: A Journey of Self Compassion
08:12 Understanding Self Compassion: Definitions and Misconceptions
15:34 Self Compassion in Practice: Overcoming Self Criticism
32:47 Self Compassion in the Workplace: Strategies for Leaders
45:13 Getting Started with Self Compassion: Resources and Tips
47:48 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
[00:00:00] Sally Clarke: Welcome to We Are Human Leaders. The term self compassion has evolved from a concept that lurked at the fringes of leadership, right into the mainstream of what it means to be a modern leader. And research shows it's an essential attribute for all leaders who want to create healthy work environments and to experience more fulfillment in life.
[00:00:27] Sally Clarke: I'm Sally Clark, and today Alexa Sana and I are talking to global expert, Amy Finlay Jones, to learn why self compassion is much more than a buzzword. And how to ensure cultivating self compassion is not another stressful to do, but an empowering, practical, and evolving journey. Amy is an associate professor, therapist, and contemplative practice facilitator who is dedicated to helping others cultivate more balanced, connected, and meaningful lives through compassion and mindfulness practice.
[00:00:56] Sally Clarke: Amy's teaching draws on many years of personal practice, her passion for social justice and activism, and her lived experience of long term chronic illness. She founded Kindful in 2015 to support the cultivation of compassion as a means of creating positive change in the world. Amy is involved in ongoing research that investigates the effects of compassion training on intra and interpersonal wellbeing.
[00:01:17] Sally Clarke: She's developed several self compassion training programs and is the lead editor of the Handbook of Self Compassion. We've wanted to bring this topic to We Are Human leaders for a really long time, and we are so grateful to do it with a human who is truly a shining light in this field. Let's dive in.
[00:01:35] Alexis Zahner: Welcome to We Are Human Leaders, Amy. It's such a pleasure to sit down with you today, and we'd like to begin our conversation today getting to know you a little bit more and the journey that has brought you to this very important work that you are doing now. Of
[00:01:52] Amy Finlay-Jones: course. And thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
[00:01:55] Amy Finlay-Jones: So, my journey really with self compassion began when I was in my late teens, which is quite some time ago now. At the time, I was in law school and I was a fairly typical law school student. Very much in my head, very A type personality, very perfectionistic. Very mind over matter and a total hardcore people pleaser.
[00:02:20] Amy Finlay-Jones: So it was halfway through that year that I think it was my first year of law school that I was actually hospitalized with a chronic illness. And at the time I was told that I would be lucky to survive it. And so suddenly things were looking very, very different for me. I ended up having to drop out of law school.
[00:02:38] Amy Finlay-Jones: And for the first time, I was really facing a situation where I couldn't do any of the things that I had done throughout my early life that had given me my sense of self worth and that I'd really relied on, you know, all of the academic things, all of my achievement and all of my people pleasing stuff that I was doing.
[00:02:57] Amy Finlay-Jones: I had lost the capacity to do that because I really couldn't get out of bed for kind of the better part of a year. And so it was really losing all of that. That felt like a much bigger challenge to my survival than actually any of the physical stuff that I was going through, you know, I was told that medically I wasn't going to maybe survive, but it was more emotionally I was feeling like I just don't know how I'm going to cope and I can't do these things that I felt like they were such an integral part of who I was or what I depended on for that sense of self worth.
[00:03:28] Amy Finlay-Jones: And so it was actually in the course of my recovery that I met someone who was kind of a therapist that I was working with, and he said to me, you know, Amy, unless you change the way that you relate to yourself, you're never really going to be able to recover from this. And I thought, Okay. You know, isn't it possible just for me to have a surgery or to take some more medication or do something like that?
[00:03:52] Amy Finlay-Jones: Like the idea of actually having to change how I was with myself seemed completely unfeasible. Like I didn't really know where to start, but he really introduced me to that idea that there was a different way that you could relate to yourself and the idea that that might be something called self compassion.
[00:04:08] Amy Finlay-Jones: And so true to my A type personality, I pursued it intellectually at first. Went back to university and I did a psychology degree and ended up doing my doctoral studies focusing on self compassion. But it was really in the course of doing that that I recognized that unfortunately for people like me, self compassion is not really something that can be understood.
[00:04:31] Amy Finlay-Jones: Purely intellectually, it's something that we have to embody and we have to experience in order to truly benefit from it. And so that was what really motivated me to start training in some of the various programs that I now facilitate, things like compassion, cultivation, training, and mindful self compassion training.
[00:04:49] Amy Finlay-Jones: And I remained very interested in the science of self compassion. And so. What I do now is really a mix of kind of that intellectual and that experiential side, so trying to bring the science and practice together and really trying to make self compassion accessible for people like me who are so far away from it that it felt like another planet at first.
[00:05:11] Alexis Zahner: Yeah, we hear you, Amy. Sally and I both are sitting here nodding vigorously because this is something as individuals I think we can both relate to in our own way and I really appreciate you unpacking that for us. Thank you. And something that I just wanted to touch on was that identity piece because I think it's something that really high achieving people often don't realize is a sticking point for them.
[00:05:37] Alexis Zahner: And I speak for myself here, but intellectualizing things like self compassion is a way to keep it at arm's distance without having to really experience it and relate to it in a way where it can be really meaningful. And I'm really glad that you were able to touch on that a little bit more for us. And I wonder now.
[00:05:53] Alexis Zahner: Has your relationship to self sort of changed through both learning about self compassion and I guess embedding it or integrating it into how you show up every day?
[00:06:02] Amy Finlay-Jones: Absolutely. And it's been a long journey and it is, I'm still on that path, you know, I'm learning and I'm relearning. the practice of self compassion every day.
[00:06:12] Amy Finlay-Jones: And, you know, just like with science, the science evolves, and so too does my relationship with how I experience self compassion in my body. And I think that some people think that self compassion is something like, okay, I'm going to attend a workshop, I'm going to do a course, and I'm going to tick that off, and then I've learnt self compassion and, you know, bing, bang, boom, we're done.
[00:06:31] Amy Finlay-Jones: But unfortunately, it is something that you continue to surprise yourself. Throughout life of the things where you'll meet something that will challenge your capacity for compassion for yourself, or you'll feel like as I do some days, God, I'm, I'm back to square one with this stuff. Like all of my old stuff is getting triggered and I haven't really made any progress that I'm still feeling as stuck as I ever was, but.
[00:06:54] Amy Finlay-Jones: Over time, I have really, really noticed, particularly in terms of how I feel self compassion in my body, that has become a lot more accessible for me and it's become a lot less threatening. And I think it was really, you know, in the course of my training, of course you do learn some of the skills for self compassion, but you also learn a lot about all of the barriers against it that you experience and how you might work with some of those barriers.
[00:07:21] Amy Finlay-Jones: And I guess that's where I'm really noticing that. Some of those things that felt like insurmountable obstacles aren't as big as they used to be for me.
[00:07:29] Sally Clarke: Amazing. I think it's really highlighting that gradual process. I think for me, often I think of it almost as kind of an onion peeling back a layer at a time, and I feel like the older I get, the more I'm aware that this onion is actually enormous.
[00:07:40] Sally Clarke: Yes. Sometimes it puts its layers back on again. Exactly. Thank you for sharing it, you know, and that embodied component of self compassion, particularly for those of us who are very attached to our intellectual capacities. It can be something that we're not even taught or shown until quite late in life.
[00:08:00] Sally Clarke: Whereas, uh, You know, I know growing up for me, the intellectual capacities and my achievements academically were very much the focus. So it's been a journey really in the last 20 years to start to understand embodiment and how that corresponds to self compassion too. I think to kind of zoom out a little bit, I'd love it if you could unpack for us the definition of self compassion that you use and perhaps a couple of the misunderstandings that you encounter that people have around self compassion.
[00:08:24] Amy Finlay-Jones: Yeah, for sure. So I think, I mean, the easiest way of understanding. Self compassion is a way of relating to ourselves, but particularly when things are going badly in our lives. So when we are struggling in some way. And people often talk about self compassion as though it's the way that we would treat somebody that we really love and bringing that back on ourselves.
[00:08:45] Amy Finlay-Jones: So how do we treat the people that we really care about when they're having a hard time and looking to see if we can treat ourselves in the same way. But it's not just about having empathy or being kind to ourselves. It is about really being motivated to help ourselves move through whatever difficulties we may be experiencing.
[00:09:03] Amy Finlay-Jones: So it's really important to remember that there is that motivational piece in there. And Kristen Neff, who's one of my colleagues and a real pioneer in the field of self compassion gives us the definition that I think is really helpful. So she says. There are three main components of self compassion.
[00:09:20] Amy Finlay-Jones: First of all, just being aware of how we're feeling during times of difficulty and really being curious about our emotions and our experiences. So she calls that the mindfulness component of self compassion. The second piece of her model is recognizing that no matter what we're going through, Experiencing challenges and the difficult emotions that go alongside those challenges is really part of our human experience, is what connects us to other people.
[00:09:47] Amy Finlay-Jones: The third component of it, and this is the part that people think this is just what self compassion is, but it is broader than that, is about being gentle and understanding with ourselves when we're having a hard time. And of course, a lot of people are not very self compassionate and they sort of, they have the opposite of those three components.
[00:10:03] Amy Finlay-Jones: So when they're having a hard time, they might notice that actually they're feeling quite avoidant of their emotions, or they might be feeling really overwhelmed by them. They might notice that they tend to ruminate on them and get really stuck in kind of the story of what's happening to them. They might also notice that they feel really alone.
[00:10:20] Amy Finlay-Jones: When they're having a hard time and they may do things to actually physically isolate themselves from others or kind of try and shield other people from what they're going through because they don't want to burden them. So really having that experience of isolation. And the third thing they might do, which is kind of that opposite to the self kindness piece is they might really criticize themselves and judge themselves rather than being kind and understanding with themselves.
[00:10:44] Amy Finlay-Jones: And I think that's a really helpful three part model that we can apply when we are trying Looking to sort of put self compassion into practice. But in terms of some of the misgivings around self compassion, I think one of the biggest misconceptions is that. It really is just about that bit about being nice to ourselves.
[00:11:04] Amy Finlay-Jones: I always talk about it's like the, the Chardonnay and bubble bath definition. People think we're just, you know, every time we have a hard time, we're going to go to the day spa and really rely on that to cope with the moments of difficulty. And I think while self kindness is a really important component of self compassion, we have to go to that piece about it being rooted in a motivation to help us really move through what it is that we're struggling with, whatever that may be.
[00:11:30] Amy Finlay-Jones: For the more minor things in life, maybe a glass of wine and a bubble bath will cut it. But for some of our more complex challenges, we do tend to find that there may be things that we need to do that aren't particularly comfortable for us. We might have to have a difficult conversation. We might have to set some boundaries in our lives.
[00:11:48] Amy Finlay-Jones: We might have to look at aspects of our own behaviour that are really contributing to the difficult circumstance that we find ourselves in. And in that ways, the self kindness piece. can be more akin to a self mentoring or a kind of taking a wise perspective on what is happening in our lives and taking the action steps that we need to truly move ourselves through that and prevent that suffering or that struggling from happening in the future.
[00:12:14] Amy Finlay-Jones: So I think that is a really common misconception around self compassion. I think the other one that stands out for me is that self compassion is selfish. or too self focused. And I think this is a really interesting one because if you think about self criticism, which is kind of another way we might choose to relate to ourselves when we're having a hard time, that also involves a lot of self focus.
[00:12:37] Amy Finlay-Jones: If we think about what it's like to be self critical, we are constantly looking at, you know, what we've done or who we are and evaluating and appraising different aspects of our behavior, beating ourselves up if we feel that they're not up to standard. And when self criticism becomes. really problematic, it can be very ruminative.
[00:12:55] Amy Finlay-Jones: It can take up a lot of our time and a lot of our emotional resources because it doesn't make us feel very good. And so when we are in that state, we're really not very able to be there for other people because we're so consumed by how bad we feel and we're consumed by our own behavior and what's going on for us.
[00:13:14] Amy Finlay-Jones: And so while self compassion does also involve aspects of looking What's going on in our lives and the things that we might be struggling with, it does it in a way that actually releases us from overly focusing on them because it helps us to move through them in a way that helps us to bounce back and allows us actually to have resilience and more emotional resources to give to other people and to the world around us.
[00:13:38] Amy Finlay-Jones: So I think that's a really interesting. concern about self compassion that we don't see shared when people talk about self criticism. They don't say, Oh, you shouldn't criticize yourself because it's selfish, but actually it does take more of our kind of mental and emotional resources than self compassion does.
[00:13:55] Sally Clarke: Thank you so much for sharing, Amy. I think you really highlighted something that I think is a really prevalent misconception that I see a lot and I've experienced myself as well. That it's almost like if I had stopped self flagellating and just. Sort of disciplining and really sort of whipping myself up the hill.
[00:14:11] Sally Clarke: I think historically I had the idea that self compassion, well, what will I do anything anymore? And, you know, will we get out of bed if we're just self compassionate all the time, but what you've really highlighted for me here, and I love the word wise and mentor that you use as well, so that it's not this permissive state, but it's actually really deeply believing in and prioritizing our own wellbeing, even if that's perhaps uncomfortable.
[00:14:32] Sally Clarke: So it's not necessarily this inherent, just hedonistic state of self indulgence.
[00:14:37] Amy Finlay-Jones: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it is really important to remember that it's not about letting ourselves off the hook, and we do have a lot of research now that shows that people who are self compassionate are actually more likely to take accountability for their behavior, for their lives, they're more able to re engage with goals after they may have have experienced a setback, they're actually more motivated in a lot of ways.
[00:15:03] Amy Finlay-Jones: And although it can be really daunting for people who do feel that they're reliant on self criticism in order to actually get anything done, I think it's important to remember that we don't have to kind of fully throw out all of our self critical approaches and become self compassionate overnight. In fact, I'd be very surprised if anyone could do that.
[00:15:23] Amy Finlay-Jones: So yeah, it's an interesting thing to. Just to play around with and to see whether changing towards a more self compassionate approach actually does impact our motivation in that way.
[00:15:32] Alexis Zahner: I think it's a great point, Amy. And to speak personally for a moment, for me, self compassion is something I came to a few years ago when dealing with some serious grief in my life.
[00:15:43] Alexis Zahner: And I guess struggling to cope with that felt like what I was used to doing in my day to day, I could no longer do for a period of time, and becoming very self critical, very self judging through that period. I noticed that the difference for me between meeting myself with self compassion and not, is this sort of visceral feeling It's like being pushed towards outcomes that I think I should be achieving versus feeling pulled towards things because it's coming from a place that I know it's in my best interest, I guess, and feeling like you actually have agency over that a little bit more versus sort of forced to do things from this sort of external place of pressure.
[00:16:22] Alexis Zahner: Does that sort of ring true in any way for you as well?
[00:16:26] Amy Finlay-Jones: Absolutely. I sort of liken it to the difference between being motivated by love and concern for our own well being to being motivated by fear. And I think that is absolutely critical in, you know, the difference between whether we feel That we're fully engaged from a place of knowing that this is what I want to do.
[00:16:45] Amy Finlay-Jones: And this is aligned with what I need for me versus this is what somebody else expects from me, or this is what I've been told I should want, or, you know, any of those things. Or if I don't do this thing, then something bad is going to happen.
[00:16:57] Alexis Zahner: Yeah, I think that would be the case for a lot of people. And one thing you mentioned earlier was people pleasing.
[00:17:02] Alexis Zahner: We hear a lot about perfectionism and a lot about imposter syndrome, especially in the leadership space. Right now, I know for myself personally, these are things that I've experienced throughout my life at different times. I'd love to know, Amy, what do you think that these sorts of things have in common and how might self compassion actually help us to overcome some of these?
[00:17:24] Amy Finlay-Jones: Yeah, so it's a bit of a Pandora's box this one, but essentially I think, you know, both perfectionism and people pleasing really stem from difficulties in terms of how we see ourselves and how we see our place in the world. They're both often associated with the belief that we are at our core inadequate in some way.
[00:17:45] Amy Finlay-Jones: And what both perfectionism and people pleasing tell us is that our self worth or our value in the world is based on how well we do, how productive we are, how useful or likable other people find us. And what that does is create both an over reliance on what other people think, coupled with this really deep fear of being judged or rejected.
[00:18:08] Amy Finlay-Jones: And the really sad thing about both people pleasing and perfectionism is that even when we, you are actually really liked by other people, or we're performing at a really high standard, it doesn't actually assuage that fear. We are actually still, you know, at our core, really afraid that we are inherently inadequate.
[00:18:26] Amy Finlay-Jones: And then we have this really added layer on top, which is that the better we do, the more likely we are to see imposter syndrome creep in. And this is the belief that we have somehow tricked everybody and that, you know, they're going to actually find out that we are as inadequate as we really believe that we are and that we one day are really going to get found out.
[00:18:47] Amy Finlay-Jones: And so I think, you know, that we often see things going together. They can manifest a little differently depending on your particular flavor of people pleasing or perfectionism. But regardless of what it looks like, I think self compassion Can really help us in a couple of ways. And it's important to kind of remember, I think with this, that self compassion is not about saying, Oh, it doesn't matter what other people think.
[00:19:11] Amy Finlay-Jones: Like you're great. Don't worry about it. I have had a few people hoping that that was what I was going to tell them. And you know, it would be really nice if that is the case, but as a people pleaser or a perfectionist, if you are one, you probably know that it can be very hard when people say, Oh, just don't worry about it.
[00:19:27] Amy Finlay-Jones: Like, just don't worry about what other people think about you. So with self compassion, what we do is that we look at ourselves caught in this trap of people pleasing or perfectionism, and we go, okay, this is actually really hard. I'm living this life. I'm feeling inadequate. I put all of this energy into trying to please other people, into trying to be good at things, into trying Do things really well, half the time I feel like I'm failing and the other half of the time, even if I do succeed, I still feel like it's not good enough or that I might be found out and, you know, recognized for not actually being as good as I present myself.
[00:20:04] Amy Finlay-Jones: And so in that way, I'm kind of damned if I do, I'm damned if I don't, and that really sucks. It's really hard. And so we start to have compassion for this very vulnerable, very human, very messy predicament that we find ourselves in. And from that place, I think we can start to be really curious about what is it that we need to support ourselves through that experience.
[00:20:25] Amy Finlay-Jones: And that can be kind of the first shift or the first step, really, in starting to make that transition. Rather than just saying, oh, you know, it doesn't matter what other people think. But I think the second way that self compassion can help us, and I kind of alluded to this before, is really by just saying, okay, let's just make an experiment out of this.
[00:20:44] Amy Finlay-Jones: Let's just really see, you know, how much does it matter whether I do this thing perfectly, or whether people find me likeable or useful. So we can start just by taking one situation and Seeing what it's like to prioritize our own needs and not be so perfect or useful or agreeable all of the time. And, you know, in a perfect world, we might find that the people around us are just as loving and just as accepting as they've always been.
[00:21:10] Amy Finlay-Jones: They might even be relieved that, oh, this is good. They're not trying so hard to be perfect all the time because that was actually quite annoying. But actually, sometimes it doesn't go that way. And, you know, I probably. I have had this experience personally that I actually managed to set up a life where I was surrounded by people whose approval was really contingent on me behaving in a certain way, and it was very difficult for everybody when I decided that I wasn't going to do that anymore.
[00:21:37] Amy Finlay-Jones: It was very painful for me to realize that. That actually, maybe these people don't really like me for me. They genuinely do only, you know, have time for me in so far as I serve a function or a purpose for them. And it's a really hard realization, but I think with self compassion again, we can take that step back and we recognize, yeah, this is really difficult.
[00:21:58] Amy Finlay-Jones: This is really painful. And you know what? I have a choice. I can go back to being the perfectionistic people pleaser and keeping that pattern going and all different type of pain that comes with that. Or I can decide to make a shift out of it and try to start to maybe build relationships that are a little bit more genuine and a little bit authentic.
[00:22:18] Amy Finlay-Jones: And where people do actually like me for who I am. And that is going to be hard, but you know, I can support myself through that. And so I think, you know, certainly in my own life, as I said before, it's been a very step by step process, but when we're talking about alleviating suffering in the longterm, we can't expect it to happen overnight.
[00:22:38] Sally Clarke: Thank you so much for sharing Amy. And I think. That's one of the things that we want often is a quick fix. So it's like, okay, if I'm just, if I just don't care anymore, what anyone thinks, and that's kind of the flip side of caring what everyone thinks. But I think it's understanding that this journey is perhaps holding some space for the messiness and complexity of things.
[00:22:56] Sally Clarke: And I also, as you were speaking, was reflecting on my own experience as a lawyer during my legal career, being myself where people please a perfectionist and having imposter, the trifecta, imposter syndrome. Welcome to the club.
[00:23:06] Alexis Zahner: Yeah. Resonate
[00:23:09] Sally Clarke: deeply. And yeah, being surrounded by these kind of people, and I think in some sense, it's almost a little bit countercultural, I think, as well, when we start to behave in ways that are different as well, and I think, you know, I burnt out as a lawyer, and I now do research into burnout, and I think for a lot of people, it comes to that almost breaking point, Where these modalities are simply not serving them to the point where they almost have no other option, but to change and start to track towards self compassion.
[00:23:34] Sally Clarke: And I think it's so important for us to really acknowledge that it is not a pill that we swallow and suddenly we're self compassionate, but it is that journey. And that there are, you know, little ways that we can start to build it in that sort of experiment that you highlighted, I think you're just starting to test it in small ways with different people and knowing that it may not land for everyone, but coming back to that fundamental belief as well of self worth, because I think it really needs to start there to really be able to take it.
[00:24:03] Amy Finlay-Jones: Yeah, although I think I would point out that we don't have to really like ourselves in order to practice self compassion. I think that's one of the most helpful things for me, because I was coming at this from a place of, on the surface, I ticked all the boxes to like myself, but that was actually driven by a deep self compassion.
[00:24:21] Amy Finlay-Jones: Deep dislike of myself underneath and this feeling that at my core, I was kind of a bad person. And I do, you know, a lot of the people that I work with are really worried that actually I have to like myself in order to be able to feel like I deserve self compassion. Fortunately, we don't actually have to come from that place of Inherent self worth, thankfully, because if we did, a lot of us would be very stuck, I think.
[00:24:45] Amy Finlay-Jones: So it is really a case of looking at us in the midst of not feeling lovable, not feeling good, not feeling worthy and going, you know, this is really hard and I deserve compassion purely for the fact that I am human and I am suffering. Not because I'm a good person.
[00:25:00] Alexis Zahner: I'm actually so glad you mentioned that because I still recall my very first interaction with a counsellor, probably 15 years ago now, when I think they said something to me of the effect of, you know, you need to start by loving yourself.
[00:25:14] Alexis Zahner: And I genuinely was like, I do not for a second understand what you mean, or how that looks, like what does that mean? And I think what I appreciate around how, the way you're explaining this, is it feels like self compassion is something we can more tangibly Offer ourselves. Certainly that was the case for me.
[00:25:35] Alexis Zahner: It felt like something I could do, like a practice that I could cultivate. And I can honestly say that through time, I do like myself more now than I did 15, 20 years ago. Some days I don't always, there are days where I get very self judging, very self critical and dislike certain things about myself. But I think it's actually for me personally, something you can learn through the journey, I think of self compassion, certainly that was my experience.
[00:26:02] Amy Finlay-Jones: Yeah, absolutely. I think my experience has been the same and there are definitely days, as I said, where all of those feelings of being inherently bad Uh, really, really prevalent, but self compassion can be an in the moment practice as much as it can be a broader kind of orientation towards your life and towards yourself.
[00:26:22] Amy Finlay-Jones: And so I think it's when those core beliefs surface for, for whatever reason, whatever's triggered them. I go hard on the in the moment practices and then when they're not there, because they do fluctuate, they're certainly not there every day. I can rest back into just a more gentle and general orientation towards supporting my own wellbeing.
[00:26:41] Sally Clarke: Amazing, Amy. I'd love to sort of understand, again, sort of a very practical perspective. If we're aware, and I'm sure many listeners are right now, of a fairly strong self critical approach that they have. What are some ways that we can start to work with that self criticism and start to perhaps track towards more positive outcomes?
[00:26:59] Sally Clarke: And again, you alluded earlier to it's not just this 180 degree switch. What are some first steps we might be able to take?
[00:27:05] Amy Finlay-Jones: Yeah, okay. So I think understanding self criticism is a good first step. And Professor Paul Gilbert, who is another compassion scientist, who's really been instrumental in our understanding of self compassion, has also done a lot of work on the various forms of self criticism that we can have, the different functions that it can play, and the different emotions can be connected with it.
[00:27:29] Amy Finlay-Jones: And he has found that there is actually quite a diverse range when it comes to self criticism on the one end of the spectrum, we can have a form that actually is quite constructive. And that form of self criticism is more oriented towards helping us to reflect on our actions and choices, learning from our mistakes, helping us to stay focused on the goals that are meaningful to all.
[00:27:52] Amy Finlay-Jones: to us. And in that form, self criticism is kind of more like, you know, we could call it compassionate self correction, perhaps, if we wanted to bring that compassion word in. Kind of like having a, an inbuilt feedback system that, that helps us just kind of stay on track. But at the other end, and what a lot of people often see self criticism to be, is this idea of maladaptive self criticism.
[00:28:13] Amy Finlay-Jones: That is also based on thinking about ourselves and our behavior, but in a way that is much more ruminative, much more concerned with beating ourselves up about our mistakes rather than learning from them or reflecting on them and growing from them. So that form of self criticism is the one that's really associated with a lot of of stress, anxiety, and depression.
[00:28:33] Amy Finlay-Jones: So I think first of all, it's important for us to kind of have a sense of the differences between the two and really noticing the difference in the tone and motivation between those two forms of self, you may not even want to call them self criticism, but self relation. So with constructive self criticism or compassionate self correction.
[00:28:53] Amy Finlay-Jones: It's really motivated by concern for our own wellbeing and the desire to help us improve because we really care about ourselves and because we care about other people. And as I kind of mentioned before, it's this idea of using love as the motivating force can be really encouraging and reassuring in its tone.
[00:29:11] Amy Finlay-Jones: Whereas maladaptive self criticism tends to be very harsh and hostile. And it really uses that fear based motivation that tells you, you know, you need to improve because you're bad or because something bad is going to happen if you don't fix things or if you don't change things up. So, in terms of making the shift from that maladaptive self criticism, Towards the more constructive approach.
[00:29:34] Amy Finlay-Jones: It's really important to recognize because so many people are afraid that they're going to lose their capacity to ever get anything done or ever to improve. We've got to recognize that both those forms really are based on the potential for growth and for learning and improvement. And we're not going to become like a hot mess overnight.
[00:29:53] Amy Finlay-Jones: Just because we stopped beating ourselves up so much. In fact, we are actually more likely to be able to take accountability for our mistakes and to learn from them and move past them. So I think the first step is really to bring awareness and to check in with ourselves and notice what is the tone and the motivation of my inner critic?
[00:30:12] Amy Finlay-Jones: And perhaps we might take a moment also to recognize, you know, Where is that coming from? Is this really actually motivated by trying to keep me safe, trying to help me win other people's approval. And if you do see that that is the motivation, even if it is not actually making you feel safe or lovable at all, at the end of the day, you might take a moment to just have compassion for the fact that you have ended up in this predicament where you've got.
[00:30:39] Amy Finlay-Jones: And in a critic that is sort of trying to help you be loved or trying to help you do good in the world, but it's not doing it in a way that is particularly effective and actually it's making you really feel bad about yourself. So having compassion for the pain that that has caused and then just considering, is there a different way that we might motivate ourselves to change the same behavior so we don't have to let go of that goal of changing that particular behavior.
[00:31:05] Amy Finlay-Jones: Is there a way that we can motivate ourselves towards change in a way that is much more reassuring and kind? And this is where it's really helpful to think about how might I speak to my good friend if I was encouraging them to do whatever it was that they were trying to do or change whatever it was that they didn't like.
[00:31:22] Amy Finlay-Jones: Like about their lives and you know, often with our friends or with our kids or you know, even with our pets, we don't go in with a really aggressive, harsh approach when we're trying to get them to do something or to stop doing something. We try, you know, speaking to them in a way that is really kind and caring and it's much more motivating at the end of the day than that more aggressive approach.
[00:31:42] Alexis Zahner: Amy, it sounds as though the. Constructive self criticism side of things might be an opportunity to perhaps have some more objective measures in place as well. Like, I can't help think that something like a personal value system is perhaps a helpful way for us to sort of support ourselves to move towards the kind of person we want to be versus away from that place of fear.
[00:32:03] Alexis Zahner: Would you say some of those sort of things could be helpful in that process as well?
[00:32:07] Amy Finlay-Jones: Yeah, absolutely. I think at its heart, self compassion is about asking ourselves, what is it that I really need right now to help me through this or to help me get to where I want to go? And I think if, you know, we can think about that as an in the moment thing, but we can also think about the broader landscape of our lives and really wanting to build a life that is structured around the things that we find valuable and meaningful and really taking the time to check in with ourselves and seeing, are we aligning with where we want to go?
[00:32:38] Amy Finlay-Jones: And if not, is there a way that we can slightly change course a little bit and get back on track? And that in itself is an act of self care and an act of self love.
[00:32:47] Alexis Zahner: Now, Amy. so much. Well, being in wellness is something that we hear so much about in the world right now, especially in the workplace context as well.
[00:32:55] Alexis Zahner: There's a myriad of ways that we're being barraged with this information right now at work. You know, everything from apps and yoga retreats and et cetera. And I feel like for many of us, it can feel like another. tick box thing that we're required to do versus actually being for us. And I just wondered how might self compassion actually help us reframe that component of our own wellbeing and taking care of ourselves?
[00:33:19] Amy Finlay-Jones: Yeah, this is a funny one. I think, I mean, for me, even more than a tick box. Box, the kind of self care imperative can feel really stressful. All of these initiatives at work telling you you have to do yoga at lunchtime and then Pilates and then go off to some social club and blah, blah, blah. And if you don't do it, then you're not kind of going, you're going to burn out maybe or something terrible is going to happen.
[00:33:41] Amy Finlay-Jones: And yeah, it does create quite a lot of pressure. So I think this is where understanding the way that self compassion feels in the body is really important. And again, I'm going to go back to Paul Gilbert's work because I think his work is so helpful in understanding this, because he explains that as human beings, we have three mind body systems that have evolved and to be fundamental for our survival.
[00:34:06] Amy Finlay-Jones: And they are all associated with quite different physiological footprints or kind of ways of feeling in the body, as well as ways of thinking and behaving. So first of all, we have our soothing system. And that is the system that has really evolved to help us to take care of each other. It's associated with feelings of care and connection.
[00:34:25] Amy Finlay-Jones: And without it, we would not survive as a species. We also wouldn't really survive as individuals because as individuals, our survival is compromised if we're not really able to connect with and care for other people. So that is our soothing system. The second system we have is our A drive system, and that is responsible for motivating us to acquire resources and to achieve our goals.
[00:34:47] Amy Finlay-Jones: As you might imagine, also very important for our survival, but it has a very different footprint in the body. So physiologically, when we're in our drive system, we're a lot more alert, we're a lot more focused, we're more goal oriented. And this can create some degree of stress and tension in the body. It can be a healthy stress, it can be a Can also veer off into unhealthy stress, but it kind of depends on how long you've been in your drive system and how much it's balanced with some soothing.
[00:35:13] Amy Finlay-Jones: The third system we have is our threat system, and that's the one that evolved to protect us from danger, and it's associated with our fight or flight response. Again, that one is particularly important for our survival, and it's associated with a much higher degree of stress and tension in the body. So if you were to guess which system self compassion is associated with, which one would you pick, do you think?
[00:35:34] Alexis Zahner: Certainly not drive or threat. I'm going to go with soothing.
[00:35:39] Amy Finlay-Jones: Of course. So I think if we're really feeling self compassion, we are in our soothing system a lot of the time. You know, ultimately we do feel soothed. We feel regulated by the practice of self compassion. The issue with self care is that it's become something that we feel driven to do either because we think it's going to help us to achieve our goals.
[00:35:58] Amy Finlay-Jones: So activating the drive system or something that we are fearing that we're going to burn out if we don't do it. So activating our threat system. And so if we're coming at self care from our driver, our threat system, by definition, it is not self compassionate because we are. activating entirely different physiological systems.
[00:36:16] Amy Finlay-Jones: We feel stressed rather than soothed. And so that's why I always remind people that self compassion is not the same thing as self care. You know, people often think they're the same. They're absolutely not the same. And our self care is not compassionate unless it is really motivated by that care and concern for our wellbeing rather than that kind of drive or that fear based approach.
[00:36:36] Sally Clarke: I love that you use the word motivation because I think, Amy, that really encapsulates. It's kind of the. underlying reason that we do things. And I think these days there's often this idea of I'll use self care as a way to sort of hack my system or extract more from myself or something that actually goes against the principles of self compassion.
[00:36:55] Sally Clarke: So I think it's a really important question that we have to ask ourselves quite honestly. What is my motivation for doing this? And it does it align with the soothing system? Is it coming from that sort of, you know, rest and digest and sort of healing component that I think our system has and needs to use in order to really thrive.
[00:37:12] Sally Clarke: And I think that the motivation is, is often a question we overlook. Now, in terms of self compassion in the workplace and for leaders, I'd love to, if you can give us a couple of examples of how you see self compassion impacting our workplaces and how leaders can perhaps encourage self compassion for their teams.
[00:37:30] Amy Finlay-Jones: Yeah, so this is a really interesting one because I think it's important to point out that we really can't be prescriptive about what self compassion looks like in any context. I think it really depends on. The type of work you do, your workplace environment, the role that you play as a leader. I have had lots of people kind of asking me for that three point plan for self compassion in the workplace.
[00:37:55] Amy Finlay-Jones: And, you know, I say, unfortunately, we got to get creative. You know, you need to understand what this feels like, and then you can understand what it might look like in your role. And I've worked with everyone from emergency care physicians, to coroners, to teachers, first responders. It's going to look different, very, very different depending on what context they're in and also their role within that context.
[00:38:17] Amy Finlay-Jones: But what I can share with you is some of the ways that I try to bring self compassion into my team. So in my role as an academic, and as you might know, academia is a very high competition, high stress environment. So the first thing I try and do is just bring it in through my own personal practice. We do tend to see in.
[00:38:37] Amy Finlay-Jones: In environments or in workplace cultures where there is a lot of competition and a lot of stress, that stress is really contagious. And it's like, you know, you're in a room with somebody who is anxious and competitive. It's not going to take long before you're kind of caught up in that bubble of anxiety and stress or.
[00:38:53] Amy Finlay-Jones: Or competitiveness and you're feeling kind of on edge. So I try and do a few circuit breakers through my day, take a walk, take a break for myself. I meditate. Sometimes I meditate at work. They see me lying on the floor. They think, what's going on in that room? But that's one of the downsides of having a very open plan office.
[00:39:11] Amy Finlay-Jones: But I think if I do do that, I tend to find that I'm at least not adding to that kind of contagion of stress that I'm able to. Sort of remove myself from that kind of escalating cycle of your stress. So then I feel stressed. And so then I pass that on to someone else. Um, the second way that I try and bring self compassion in is really through being very open about times that I've made mistakes or times where I haven't behaved in ways that I feel proud of.
[00:39:40] Amy Finlay-Jones: And, and really trying to kind of model self compassion, I guess. So sharing how I'm working through it and. I think for me, as a leader, it is very important to have a culture of psychological safety in our team where people do feel that it's okay to make mistakes and, you know, We're receiving feedback, even feedback that is, you know, critical or that is not always positive is not something that has to be awful or aversive.
[00:40:08] Amy Finlay-Jones: You know, it is something that we can actually all be on the same page. You know, we're not all perfect. We all have times where we do not do things that went according to plan and that's okay. And so how do we set up a culture? Where we really normalize that vulnerability and that humanity and invite everybody into that conversation of sharing the things that perhaps aren't going so well for them.
[00:40:29] Amy Finlay-Jones: A third thing that I do is that I, more so in my one on ones with my team members, I will directly integrate that three part structure that Kristen Neff talks about. So. If I notice that a member of my team is struggling with something, I might have a conversation about how they're feeling about it and what they think might be helpful to support them through it.
[00:40:50] Amy Finlay-Jones: And I think particularly in the kind of hyper competitive environment like academia, where we're all, you know, really selling a particular version of our own achievements to try and get the next grant or to try and get the next position or whatever it is. I think it's really important to really bring in that common humanity piece and remind people that regardless of how successful anyone looks on the outside, they've certainly had their share of rejections, their mistakes, their setbacks, their failures, and nobody is alone in experiencing that.
[00:41:19] Amy Finlay-Jones: I think what I will say is that there is way of approaching self compassion that I wasn't really initially aware of and, you know, in hindsight, I really wish I had been when I started working in a leadership role. And that is this idea of the yin and yang of self compassion. So the yin aspect is probably the one that more people are familiar with.
[00:41:43] Amy Finlay-Jones: It's this idea of the more soft and receptive side of self compassion, which is very soothing and nurturing and accepting. But there is also this other side, the young side, which is much more active and assertive. And it's about setting boundaries and really learning how to say no to unreasonable requests.
[00:42:02] Amy Finlay-Jones: And so when I first started as a team leader, I really leaned heavily into the inside. I had just come out of a team environment that was really lacking in psychological safety. And I was going to ensure that at Any cost, I had that in my team. I'm very focused on making sure that everyone felt really supported and nurtured.
[00:42:21] Amy Finlay-Jones: But unfortunately, what that meant for me is that I neglected my own needs. I really struggled to set boundaries. I really struggled to hold people accountable because I wanted them to feel safe and I didn't often know how to put safety and accountability kind of On the same page or as part of the same conversation.
[00:42:41] Amy Finlay-Jones: And so what that meant was that ultimately I really struggled with burnout. 'cause I took on so much of that for myself and that really wasn't healthy for me or for my team. And so I think what I would say now to anyone in a leadership position looking to bring in self-compassion is to remember that balance of the yin and the yang.
[00:42:59] Amy Finlay-Jones: And that we need both in order to have a high functioning team.
[00:43:02] Sally Clarke: I'm so glad you highlighted that, Amy. Um, Kristen Neff uses the terms tender and fierce to describe these forms of self compassion.
[00:43:10] Amy Finlay-Jones: Yes, absolutely.
[00:43:11] Sally Clarke: And I really love the word fierce. It's become something that I use it multiple times a day in multiple contexts, but I think it's so important to understand that sometimes it's that little bit of fire in us.
[00:43:22] Sally Clarke: That can actually be a form of self compassion too. So I think that's a really important delineation for leaders as well, that it's not just about being nice and perhaps erring towards people pleasing tendencies in terms of creating a compassionate and safe environment, but understanding there are times when boundaries are needed and accountability is important too, and I loved how you sort of described that as, you know, having both on the same page at once.
[00:43:43] Amy Finlay-Jones: Yeah. And I think, you know, for a long time, particularly. In some of the trainings that I was delivering and in a lot of the conversation around self compassion, it did also feel like men were a little bit left out of the conversation, partly because it felt like self compassion could be this really soft, gooey, feminine, you know, thing, not that we want to be overly gendered in our understandings, but.
[00:44:08] Amy Finlay-Jones: That's how it felt for a lot of people that it was kind of oriented towards one way of being. And I think by acknowledging that self compassion can be really fierce, it can be really courageous, that it doesn't have to look like softness necessarily. And I have seen that in some of the work that I've done with people who are working in really high pressure environments, like emergency care.
[00:44:30] Amy Finlay-Jones: And they don't actually have the time to kind of sit down and, you know, meditate or tune into how they're feeling or do any of that stuff, but they are actually able to integrate self compassion in a way that really works for them in that environment.
[00:44:44] Alexis Zahner: Yeah, I appreciate that, Amy. And as someone who's also learned the lessons, the hard way of leading a team, I think that kindness.
[00:44:51] Alexis Zahner: It is a form of self compassion and that can come through those hard conversations through explicit communication, instructions, boundaries, all of the things that help people actually know what like the operating norms are. I think that in a way is a form of compassion and kindness and one that's so needed to help people feel supported because they know where the lines in the sand are.
[00:45:11] Alexis Zahner: Absolutely. I 100 percent agree. Now, Amy, for someone who wants to begin cultivating self compassion for themselves in their life, we'd love to know from you, where do you think they should start?
[00:45:22] Amy Finlay-Jones: So I guess like anything, I think it helps to start with awareness, awareness of how you already relate to yourself when things are difficult, but also awareness of how you even feel about the idea of self compassion.
[00:45:37] Amy Finlay-Jones: So perhaps for you, it's something that sounds. unfamiliar, but actually not too intimidating, or perhaps it's something that feels actually really daunting and really scary. And it's really important to know that we are all at very different starting places with this stuff, and we should never ever beat ourselves up for feeling like we're failing at self compassion.
[00:45:56] Amy Finlay-Jones: It's very much determined by, you know, our childhood experiences particularly, and as well as our experiences as adults, is in terms of how Difficult or easy it is going to be for us to really get on board with the idea of self compassion. And so if you do notice that there is a lot of fear or resistance, my advice is to really take it slowly and perhaps you will seek out resources that are specifically tailored for your Own personal circumstances and work with somebody who is skilled and adept in working with fears of self compassion.
[00:46:27] Amy Finlay-Jones: There are a lot of people out there. You're definitely not alone in having fears of self compassion. It is a very real concern. And so just being aware of that, but if you really want to just jump in, there are lots of resources available, so. Kristen Neff's website, selfcompassion. org is a great place to start, as well as my website, kindful.
[00:46:47] Amy Finlay-Jones: com. au, we will be launching a Foundations of Self Compassion online course in the new year. And so that is really designed to give people an introduction to the science, but also to the practice of self compassion. Just as a taster before you might decide to do something that requires a bit more commitment, like a, you know, a lot of the programs are kind of eight week.
[00:47:08] Amy Finlay-Jones: And luckily we have a big network of teachers throughout Australia now. It's also something that if you're in therapy, you might speak to your therapist about how you might bring it into the therapeutic hour or simply trying to integrate it into a meditation practice. So looking for practices that are specifically focused.
[00:47:24] Amy Finlay-Jones: On self compassion or loving kindness is a great way to start
[00:47:27] Sally Clarke: loads of places to start for all of us. Thank you so much for your time with us today. Amy, this conversation couldn't have come at a better time for me personally. And I'm sure for a lot of us listening to thank you again for joining us at we are human leaders.
[00:47:41] Sally Clarke: Thanks for having me.
[00:47:48] Sally Clarke: Thanks for joining us at We Are Human Leaders. As you could probably tell, this is a conversation and a topic that is so important to both Alexis and myself. And Amy's work in this arena is just so incredible. We're so grateful for her time and expertise. If you'd like to learn more about Amy and her work, you can find links in the show notes.
[00:48:06] Sally Clarke: And if you'd like to learn more about the work we do at Human Leaders, check it out at www. wearehumanleaders. com. Thank you for being a part of this conversation. See you soon.