Radical Respect: How We Can Work Together, Better with Kim Scott
Kim Scott - Author of Radical Respect and Radical Candour, and Co-Host of the Radical Candour podcast.
Kim was a CEO coach at Dropbox, Qualtrics, Twitter, and other tech companies. She was a faculty member at Apple University and before that led AdSense, YouTube, and DoubleClick teams at Google.
How can we work together better?
Well according to today’s guest there’s a critical ingredient needed for this to happen: Radical Respect.
Radical Respect occurs when we honor individuality, while collaborating together - the keys to unlocking the best in people and creating a culture where everyone thrives.
In this episode we unpack what Radical Respect is, with Kim Scott and she shares what each and every one of us can do to bring Radical Respect to our workplaces, and communities.
Kim Scott Kim is the author of Radical Respect: How to Work Together Better and Radical Candor: Be a Kickass Boss Without Losing your Humanity. She co-founded a company that helps leaders put the ideas in her books into practice. Kim was a CEO coach at Dropbox, Qualtrics, Twitter, and other tech companies.She also co-hosts the Radical Candor podcast.
Everyone has a role to play when it comes to bringing Radical Respect to the workplace, so let’s dive in and find out more.
Learn more about Kim Scott and find her new book here:
Find our more about Kim, her books and podcast here.
Connect with Kim Scott on LinkedIn.
Get your copy of her book Radical Respect: How to Work Together Better here.
Episode Transcript:
[00:00:00] Sally Clarke: Welcome to We Are Human Leaders, Kim. It is a delight to have you with us today. And we'd love to start by really getting to know you a little bit better first, and learning a bit about the journey that you've been on, that's brought you to the incredible work that you're doing today.
[00:00:22] Kim Scott: Well, thank you. First of all, thank you so much for having me. I've been looking forward to the conversation. I, you know, I never intended, uh, when I was younger to become a leader. What, uh, what I really wanted to become was a novelist, uh, and I was afraid I couldn't make my living as a novelist. And so I studied Russian literature and then I moved to Russia and I wound up an accidental manager when I was living in Moscow in 1991.
[00:00:52] Kim Scott: It was my job to start up a diamond cutting factory for this New York based diamond company. And when I went to hire these folks, I thought, I sort of thought it would be easy. I was like, well, the ruble is crashing. The dollar is strong. Like, how hard can this be? And it turned out they wanted more than a salary.
[00:01:12] Kim Scott: They wanted a picnic. And I was like, well, I can also do that. So we had this picnic. By the time we finished a bottle of vodka, I realized that the thing that I could offer that the state could not was to give a damn. And that was sort of my initial insight. Into management is that it's really about caring about people and and all of a sudden what I had sort of dismissed as boring became interesting.
[00:01:41] Kim Scott: Uh, and when I wrote radical candor many years later. I tried to write it like a book of short stories, so I brought my love of, of, uh, of writing to writing the book, but also brought, you know, a bunch of years. So after, after Russia, I went to business school and then I did a couple of failed startups.
[00:02:02] Kim Scott: Then I worked at Google. That worked out a lot better. And then I wound up working at Apple, designing the, uh, a class called Managing at Apple. And, uh, and then I wrote Radical Candor and, and, uh, got some, which is a book about feedback. I got some feedback about that book, which prompted me to write Radical Respect.
[00:02:23] Kim Scott: So here I am.
[00:02:27] Sally Clarke: Amazing. We're so looking forward to sort of really unpacking radical respect with you during this conversation, Kim. But I love that you've highlighted That you're a novelist sort of, you know, under, underneath it all. Because I think that really informs your writing so much. It makes so much sense to me because there's so many stories in
[00:02:43] Alexis Zahner: Mm.
[00:02:44] Sally Clarke: the research and how you make it, I think, a very sort of practical experience for people who are reading the book and then implementing these lessons as leaders in workplaces.
[00:02:54] Kim Scott: Yeah, I mean, when I sat down to write Radical Candor, and I did the same thing when I sat down to write Radical Respect, I made, I made a decision that I was actually mostly just going to try to make sense of my own personal experiences. I mean,
[00:03:09] Alexis Zahner: Mm.
[00:03:10] Kim Scott: didn't do research, I read a ton for both books, but, but I didn't do, I didn't follow an academic research methodology.
[00:03:20] Kim Scott: I was like, mostly what I'm doing is I'm Sitting alone for four years, thinking and trying to make sense of things. And, uh, and I hope that helps bring some life to the book.
[00:03:33] Alexis Zahner: Absolutely. And I think it's that human experience that obviously has connected you to your readers and why your work is so well regarded Kim. Certainly Sally and I both love both books
[00:03:44] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:03:45] Alexis Zahner: to dive into yeah, we would love to dive into term of respect further and get maybe a little granular around the terminology if we could. Can you help us understand, your new book is called Radical Respect. Can you help us understand how you define respect and what makes respect different from radical respect?
[00:04:06] Kim Scott: Yes, uh, radical respect is radical because it's rare. Uh, and so, what, what, here's how the, here's how the dictionary defines respect. There are two different definitions. One is around something you have to earn. Like, you have to earn your respect as a writer by writing a good book. That is not the kind of respect that I'm talking about with radical respect.
[00:04:31] Kim Scott: What I'm talking about is the second definition of the word respect, which is the unconditional regard that we owe each other for our shared humanity. So we can disagree. You and I can disagree with each other. We can hold each other accountable and at the same time show that sort of unconditional regard for our shared humanity.
[00:04:51] Kim Scott: Uh, the, the kind of radical respect that I'm talking about is really sort of a birthright. We, we all, this is something we owe to each other. This is not something we have to earn from one another. And it's, you know, it's confusing that there's two definitions. One is about unconditional and the other is something you have to earn.
[00:05:11] Kim Scott: But anyway, that's the language. Uh, and, and when I think about radical respect, uh, I, I love a good two by two framework. So here's the radical respect framework. Radical respect happens on teams. That optimize for collaboration rather than coercion. So it's not a command and control kind of kind of situation and radical respect also happens on teams.
[00:05:38] Kim Scott: that honor everyone's individuality rather than demanding conformity. So it's the kind of team where the strength of the individual comes from the team and the strength of the team comes from the individual. You get both hands, not either or. And it's interesting to think about what could possibly move us in the wrong direction.
[00:05:57] Kim Scott: Cause I don't know about you all, but I've never met anyone who said, I really want to work in a, uh, dystopic 1984 style, everybody's working in lockstep, like people don't really want coercive work environments as a rule.
[00:06:12] Alexis Zahner: No.
[00:06:12] Kim Scott: I, and, and I, and they also don't want, you know, a work environment that demands conformity.
[00:06:21] Kim Scott: So, you know, why doesn't this always, why is it so rare? That's why I call it radical respect is that it often doesn't happen.
[00:06:30] Alexis Zahner: Yeah. Thank you, Kim. And it sounds to me like this idea of collaboration and individuality has some key underpinnings like autonomy and, you know, that freedom of choice as well.
[00:06:41] Kim Scott: Yes, absolutely. I mean, I think when we're optimizing for collaboration and honoring everyone's individuality, uh, there there is, of course, plenty of choice and plenty of autonomy. And at the same time. You know, we're, we're, we're, we're. I'm not for, I'm free to believe whatever I want, but I can't impose my beliefs on you.
[00:07:07] Alexis Zahner: Mm.
[00:07:09] Kim Scott: I'm, I'm free to bring my most authentic self to work, but that doesn't mean ignoring the impact that my words have on you. And so there's, there's, there's, there's, uh, both. I mean, I, I think, Autonomy is really important. We do our best work when, uh, when, when we're not getting micromanaged, but we also don't want to be ignored.
[00:07:34] Kim Scott: And we also don't want to ignore the impact that we're having on others.
[00:07:39] Alexis Zahner: Mm.
[00:07:40] Sally Clarke: Enormously. And I think there's a few questions that come out of what you've just said, Kim, but I would love to come back to the question that you kind of posed just now, which is, you know, none of us would say we want to work in a coercive or a, you know, an environment that
[00:07:53] Kim Scott: Conformist. Yeah.
[00:07:55] Sally Clarke: So why is it that so many workplaces end up sort of inadvertently having these kinds of tendencies?
[00:08:03] Sally Clarke: How, you know, why does it end up being that way so often?
[00:08:05] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. Uh, you know, so, so it's not, I think the problem is not intentions. Most people have good intentions. Uh, I think there's a million problems, but I'm going to boil it down to three big ones. Bias, prejudice, and bullying. And I think one of the problems about bias, prejudice, and bullying is that we often conflate these things.
[00:08:25] Kim Scott: It seems to mean the same thing, but they're actually three very different problems. So, I want to offer some super fast definitions for how we can distinguish between bias, prejudice, and bullying. Because if we don't distinguish between them, if we allow ourselves to sort of conflate three different things as though they're the same thing, then the problem begins to feel monolithic and insoluble.
[00:08:48] Kim Scott: And when you're facing a hard problem, you break it down into its component parts and take it bird by bird, as Anne Lamott would say. So bias, I'm going to define as not meaning it. I'm really talking about unconscious bias. Whereas prejudice, I would define as It's a very consciously held belief, usually incorporating some kind of unfair and inaccurate stereotype.
[00:09:14] Kim Scott: And bullying is really being mean. It's not about a belief, conscious or unconscious.
[00:09:21] Sally Clarke: mm,
[00:09:23] Kim Scott: it is, it's I think we all see these things happen. We notice these things. I bet every single person listening to this podcast can think of a moment in the last couple of days where they noticed bias, prejudice, or bullying happening and they didn't know what to say, so they didn't say anything.
[00:09:42] Kim Scott: I know that is often the problem that I find myself in. And then I wake up at three in the morning Like, why didn't I say something? And so I hope by the end of this podcast, folks will have some idea about how to respond, what to say when they don't know what to say.
[00:09:58] Alexis Zahner: It's really important, as you said, Kim, to get clear on the difference between those three. And it almost sounds like bias, prejudice, and bullying. Is this sort of almost like from unconscious to very purposeful? Is it almost like a continuum, like a people, um, and also are people aware sometimes that they are doing these things?
[00:10:19] Kim Scott: I think there can be unconscious bullying for sure. Uh, sometimes, uh, and I tell several stories in the book about times when I have bullied others and I never. I don't think of myself as a bully. I don't wake up in the morning thinking, who can I bully today? No, that's not
[00:10:37] Alexis Zahner: That's
[00:10:37] Kim Scott: intention. And yet sometimes we do without meaning to.
[00:10:40] Kim Scott: So I wouldn't say it's a continuum. I would say these are three different behaviors. This is not like a, uh, Consulting, MISI, mutually exclusive, collectively exhaustive, like sometimes we're more likely to bully someone if we have an unconscious bias, uh, or, or if we have a prejudice. So it's not like they're perfectly discreet, but it's just useful in the moment to think about what's going on.
[00:11:08] Kim Scott: I'll, I'll give you an example. One time I was about to give a talk and it was at a conference at a tech conference and I was one of very few women at this conference and right before I was about to go on stage, somebody came up to me. This man came running up to me. And he's like, where's the safety pin?
[00:11:28] Kim Scott: I need a safety pin. How I'm assuming that I was one of the people, the people staffing the conference were by and large women. And the people who were
[00:11:39] Alexis Zahner: Right.
[00:11:40] Kim Scott: in the conference were by and large men, uh, even though the staff was wearing these bright yellow t shirts that said staff, you know, and they were buying, they were probably on average, 30 years younger than I was.
[00:11:52] Kim Scott: So, but all he was noticing at that moment was. And so he made some assumptions, not the end of the world. I mean, I bet we can think about times when we have made assumptions. Maybe not the exact same assumption, but we've made assumptions about someone's role based on You know their race or their gender or some other factor that we shouldn't have made So like I want to extend a little bit of grace to this guy, but the question was how should I respond?
[00:12:22] Kim Scott: I didn't know maybe it was Probably it was bias, unconscious bias, but also maybe it was prejudice. Like there was some possibility if I said something, he would say, Oh, you're the. You know, you're talking about that soft feminine leadership bullshit, you know, like unlikely that would happen, but it has happened to me before, you know, not impossible, certainly.
[00:12:46] Kim Scott: Or it's also possible that, that he was trying to bully me and that if I said something, he would say, you know, don't get your panties in a lot. Again, unlikely, but. I bet we've all had people say things to us, you know, and so that made me reluctant to speak up, to say something. And, and, you know, I, I was not walking the radical candor talk.
[00:13:09] Kim Scott: I didn't say anything. I just was like, go ask that person with the, you know, and went on stage. And there were several problems with me not saying anything. Uh, One was that I was defaulting to silence. And if you default to silence too often, you, you lose your sense of agency. You know, you kind of feel helpless in the face of this.
[00:13:32] Kim Scott: Uh, so it was not good for me. It was also not good for him. Like on the assumption, let's assume it was probably unconscious bias. Like this was not a mistake he wanted to make. And so it would have been better for him if I had said something. And then there was a third problem. Uh, which was that it was not fair to the people who were staffing by brushing him off and kind of a maybe slightly rude way I was not dispelling his assumption that I was on the staff and now he's going to give the staff of the conference a, you know, bad marks on the, on the satisfaction survey and, you know, he was kind of rude to me and, uh, it would have, I would have been better for them if I had, if, if I had said, you know, you're, you're being kind of rude to me, uh, I'm not on the staff, but I would hope you wouldn't, you know, if, if my child were on the staff, I would hope you'd be more polite to them, you know,
[00:14:31] Alexis Zahner: Yeah.
[00:14:32] Kim Scott: and so in this mo, and these are like the little mo, it was a small moment on the one hand, but on the other hand, I'm still talking about it.
[00:14:42] Kim Scott: Uh, so I was, I was in that moment. I w I was playing several different roles at the same time and kind of not, not responding ideally in any of the roles. One of the roles is I was the person harmed. I was the target of his, whatever it was, it was probably unconscious bias to, I, uh, I was, I should have been an upstander for the staff, but I was not, I was a silent bystander.
[00:15:10] Kim Scott: Uh, and therefore I was actually sort of causing harm for them. Like, you know, now I've become part of the problem, not part of the solution. And, and fourth, as a speaker, I was sort of a leader. And I was not walking the talk. And, and so one of the things that I tried to do in Radical Respect is break down these four different roles.
[00:15:32] Kim Scott: Like what can we do about bias, prejudice, and bullying when we're the leader? What can we do when we are the upstander? What can we do when we're the person harmed by it? Uh, and what can we do when we're the person who caused harm and when the person who said or did the biased or prejudiced or bullying thing, as we are all bound to do from time to time.
[00:15:53] Sally Clarke: Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that story. I think that really, you know, resonates so much for, for many of us. And those, I think it's so often in those small moments when these things happen and it's incredible how they can stay with us when
[00:16:04] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:16:05] Sally Clarke: ostensibly, you know, it's very difficult to see sort of.
[00:16:08] Sally Clarke: To measure any harm, but harm is being caused nonetheless. And I
[00:16:12] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:16:12] Sally Clarke: you're now using this story as a means for us all to sort of learn more and unpack some of these important concepts. And I'm wondering if we can perhaps. a little bit, you know, you, you spoke to these sort of four different ways or approaches we can have sort of what a leader might do in that situation.
[00:16:29] Sally Clarke: What you've seen a leader do in an organization, when there has been an incident of bias, prejudice, or bullying, how can you best step in in a way that demonstrates radical respect and embodies these principles?
[00:16:42] Kim Scott: Yeah. So I think, uh, there's one thing that leaders can do, which is to sort of think about what is the best response and to teach their teams what the best response is. So if you think it's bias, I recommend an I statement. I don't think you meant that the way it sounded. Uh, uh, whereas if you think it is prejudice, I recommend an if statement.
[00:17:08] Kim Scott: An if statement draws a line between one person's freedom to believe whatever they want, but they can't impose that belief on others as we talked about a moment ago. And if it's bullying, you want a you statement. A you statement sort of pushes the other person away. So I'll give you some examples of how that works, and then we can talk about other things leaders can do, because there's more to the story.
[00:17:33] Kim Scott: Actually, no matter what your role is, you can use the I statement, the it statement, the you statement.
[00:17:39] Sally Clarke: Amazing.
[00:17:40] Kim Scott: of my, favorite. Stories about use of an I statement came from a colleague of mine who I think is a great upstander. He was going into a meeting with, uh, with two colleagues, one of whom was a woman who had the expertise that was going to win his team the deal, and the other guy was a man.
[00:17:59] Kim Scott: They, it was a small company and they were, they were meeting with a big company. So they went into this room, big, long conference table. And the woman sat down in the center of the conference table because she was going to, she was going to share her expertise. And then my, my colleague sat to her left and, and the other guy sat to his left and When the other side came into the conference room, the first person sat across from him, not her.
[00:18:28] Sally Clarke: Ah.
[00:18:29] Kim Scott: person sat across from the guy to his left, and then everybody else filed on down the table. leaving her dangling by herself in the center. That, and that's often how bias shows up, just who decides to sit where.
[00:18:41] Sally Clarke: Mm.
[00:18:42] Kim Scott: so she started talking and when the other side had questions, they directed them at him, not at her.
[00:18:50] Kim Scott: You've noticed that happen. I can, I can tell from your facial expression. Yeah. It happened once. It happened twice. It happened a third time. And finally he stood up and he used an I statement. I think we should switch seats. That was all he had to do to totally change the dynamic in the room. Uh, because as soon as he did that, they knocked it off.
[00:19:11] Kim Scott: And they started engaging her and quit excluding her. So, so that's a simple use of an, of an I statement. He was sort of holding a mirror up. But if it's prejudice, Holding a mirror up is not going to work. The I statement is not going to work because the other person believes that thing. They're not going to change.
[00:19:32] Kim Scott: You know, they're going to smile in the mirror. Yeah. Aren't I good looking? That's the way it is. And so here's an example of, of an it statement, uh, in, in the face of prejudice and an it statement can, uh, can appeal to a law. It can appeal to a company policy or it can appeal to common sense. It sort of draws that boundary between that other person's freedom to believe, but not to impose their belief on you.
[00:19:59] Kim Scott: So this happened to me shortly after I returned to work, uh, from parental leave. I had had twins. I had taken five months off and my second day back in the office, this, this, I was chit chatting with a guy and he said to me, Oh, my wife doesn't work because it's better for the children. And that was like a gut punch to me at that moment.
[00:20:25] Kim Scott: And, you know, because it's hard to go back to the first couple of days back, or were hard for me anyway. And, but I didn't think he meant it the way it sounded. I thought it was kind of unconscious bias. I don't know. And so I tried an I statement and I said, Oh, I decided to show up at work today because I wanted to neglect my children and I was expecting him to have your reaction.
[00:20:51] Kim Scott: I was expecting him to laugh and we would move on. But no, he doubled down. He said, Oh, no, Kim, you It's really bad for that, for your kids that you're, you've decided to come back to work. And so now I know I'm dealing with a very consciously held prejudice, not unconscious bias. And, so I need an it statement and, and, What I said, I decided to appeal to a company policy, and I said, It is an HR violation for you to tell me I'm neglecting my kids by showing up at work.
[00:21:22] Kim Scott: You're creating a hostile work environment. And that had the desired impact. He kind of backed off and looked alarmed. And I said to him, Furthermore, it's my decision. together with my spouse, how we raise our children just as it is your decision together with your spouse, how you raise yours. And happily you and I are not raising children together, but we're working.
[00:21:50] Kim Scott: We do need to work together well. And, and now he's kind of, you know, he's reengaging a little bit and I wanted to reassure him. I said, look, I'm not going to make a thing of this with HR. But it's my guess, so I'm, now I'm gonna use another it statement, appealing to common sense. It's my guess you don't want to read my research any more than I want to read your research.
[00:22:12] Kim Scott: And then he laughed. Uh, and, you know, I'm not saying that solved all the world's problems, but it did allow us to work better together. Uh, if I had said nothing, I would have resented him. Um, and also if I had said nothing. Uh, he might have decided that I shouldn't travel and stuff. I shouldn't work with clients that were, and, and I wanted him to understand that, that that was not his choice to make.
[00:22:38] Sally Clarke: Absolutely.
[00:22:39] Kim Scott: so, so it was important I think to say something in that, in that moment. Uh, even though it was, you know, it was frustrating.
[00:22:46] Sally Clarke: And I think, just sorry to interrupt Kim, but I think it's all too often we kind of do, Self effaced. We swallow our words down in that moment because it's just too uncomfortable and we suffer the consequences in the longterm.
[00:22:57] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:22:57] Sally Clarke: little bit of courage in that moment is so, so powerful. I'm so glad you were able to, to, to hold that space for it.
[00:23:04] Kim Scott: Yeah, yeah. And I think it's, it's, you know, when you're the target of when you're the person harmed by the bias, prejudice, or bullying, you get to choose your response. But what I encourage folks to do is to make that an active choice, because There are times when you get to choose your battles when you're in that role.
[00:23:27] Kim Scott: And there are times when it's not, it's, it's wise, not a lack of courage to choose your battles. And so I don't want to give people a hard time. But what I, what I will say, at least for me, is that it's useful. to, to become aware of the risks of not speaking up
[00:23:45] Sally Clarke: Mm.
[00:23:46] Kim Scott: over time you lose a sense of agency if you don't speak, you know, as with the case where I said nothing when the guy wanted me to fetch him a safety pin.
[00:23:54] Kim Scott: So, so I think that that, at least for me, as I was writing the book, that was a helpful way to think about how to respond, uh, and when to respond when I'm in the role of the person, person harmed. Um, You know, if I'm both a person harmed in the leader at the same time, I've got to act like a leader and take more.
[00:24:15] Kim Scott: I don't get so many choices. But anyway, that we can talk more about that. But let's talk for a moment about bullying and how to respond to bullying. Because an it statement is not going to work when someone's trying to bully you. As soon as you show a boundary to a bully, you can be sure they're going to try to kick past it.
[00:24:35] Kim Scott: That's the mindset that one is in when one is bullying. And again, I don't want to Assign labels to people because we all sometimes act like bullies. Uh, and an I statement is also not the best response to bullying because an I statement invites someone closer and what you want to do when someone is bullying is Push them away.
[00:24:57] Kim Scott: I learned this from my daughter when she was in third grade. She was getting bullied And I was making a mistake that I think a lot of parents make, uh, and saying to her, Oh, tell this child, I feel sad when you blah, blah, blah, use an I statement. And my daughter banged her fist on the table and she said, Mom, They are trying to make me feel sad.
[00:25:20] Kim Scott: Why would I tell them they succeeded? I'm like, Oh yeah, that's, that's a really good point. Yeah, exactly. And, and so I think when someone is, when, when you feel that someone is trying to bully you, a you statement, you can't talk to me like that. Or a you question, what's going on for you here? Why are you behaving this way?
[00:25:40] Kim Scott: Or even just a you non sequitur, if those two responses feel too antagonistic. Like, where'd you get that shirt? The point of a you statement is you're not in a submissive role. You're not, whatever they're saying to you, you're not reacting it. To it, you're asking them you're in an active stance or you're insisting that they respond to you and again, not going to solve all the world's problems, but it could be really useful in that moment where you don't know what to say.
[00:26:08] Kim Scott: Do I think it's bias? I'm going to start with the word I and let's notice what comes out of my mouth next. Do I think it's prejudice? I'm going to start with the word it and then figure out what to say next. If I think it's bullying, I'm going to start with the word you and notice what comes out of my mouth next.
[00:26:23] Kim Scott: And you don't have to be sure about which one it is. Just try, just say something and then you'll learn, you'll learn.
[00:26:32] Alexis Zahner: Thank you, Kim. something that I feel would be a real challenge in a workplace scenario is the power dynamics at play. Perhaps people who are, um, on the receiving end of bullying, prejudice, or bias, maybe aren't in a position where they feel safe to do this. And so I'd love to explore perhaps the role of an upstander.
[00:26:51] Alexis Zahner: If we're someone who's seeing this in our workplace, um, or even if it's in our community. How could we go about responding to some of these as an upstander to show support or to help sort of combat these challenges when we're seeing them in our environment?
[00:27:05] Kim Scott: Yes, so as an upstander, I think it's your obligation to intervene in some way, shape or form, but it's not always going to be the right thing to intervene directly in the moment. I can, in the story, I think we should switch seats. That worked well for that guy in that moment, but it's not, sometimes it wouldn't be the right thing to do.
[00:27:29] Kim Scott: So another thing you can do is you can delay, and just after the event, check in with the person who is harmed. I'll give you an example of why that's so effective and important to do. One time, I was going into a meeting, and it was, we were making a presentation, two colleagues and I were making a presentation to a big team, like 5, 000 people, and the leader, so it's a big auditorium, and the leader of the team introduced my first colleague, shook his hand, introduced my second colleague, shook his hand, introduced me and I stuck my hand out for him to shake it and he grabbed it and he kissed it, kind of leaving a trail of spit on the back.
[00:28:09] Kim Scott: You know, it was gross. So again, not the end of the world, but kind of gross. But what was worse than that was the fact that not a single one of those 5, 000 people afterwards came up to me and said, That was weird. Do you want a little hand sanitizer or anything? You know? And the silence from everyone who had observed this left me feeling gaslit.
[00:28:33] Kim Scott: I was like, am I the only one who thought that was weird? Am I overreacting? Like, it can be so helpful just to check in with a person. If only one person had done that, I would have felt much better about that. You know, so, so just checking in with someone delaying can be really helpful. Another thing that you can do is you can delegate.
[00:28:57] Kim Scott: There's a lot has been written about silent bystanders and, uh, and we've all been in that situation where. Something happens and people are catching each other's eyes, like, can you believe it? But no, nobody, nobody says or does anything. And if you don't feel like you're the right person to say or do something, like try to catch someone else's eye and say, can you, you know, get them to respond?
[00:29:25] Kim Scott: One of the. Um, one of, a great story about an upstager, a friend told me recently that he was, he was on a flight and there was a guy who started bullying the flight attendant because they didn't have the kind of wine he wanted and, you know, this is the worst service I've ever gotten. I'm going to send feedback and get you fired.
[00:29:52] Kim Scott: And all the other passengers were like looking around. And the woman sitting next to this guy, like, poked him. Like, you've got to stand up to this guy. And so he stood up and he said to the stewardess, you have given me excellent service, here's my card. And I'm gonna, you know, I, and then everybody did it, you know, so, so sometimes just, you know, prodding someone else to, to step in is very effective.
[00:30:20] Kim Scott: So delegating, and you can delegate up, down, or sideways. There's all kinds of, I don't know why flights are, I'm going, I'm taking a flight tomorrow, but there's all kinds of stories about calling a flight attendant when you notice, Somebody harassing someone else next to you. You know, you don't have to intervene, but you can find someone who, who can.
[00:30:39] Kim Scott: Uh, so that's a third thing you can do. Uh, you can also just create a distraction. Like sometimes spilling your coffee will break the moment if there's bullying happening, uh, and last but not least, we're all carrying around movie cameras in our pockets, you can document what happened, but remember that the person who's on.
[00:31:01] Kim Scott: Who was harmed owns the documentation. Ask them what, if anything, they want you to do with it. So those, uh, and there's an organization called Right to Be that recommends these five Ds. And I thought that was really helpful because it's hard to know in the moment what, you know, what, what, what is my role here?
[00:31:21] Kim Scott: How should I, how should I intervene as an upstander?
[00:31:25] Sally Clarke: Amazing.
[00:31:25] Alexis Zahner: absolutely.
[00:31:27] Sally Clarke: Yeah, these are really sort of practical examples and I think often in the moment we can kind of feel that like that sort of almost tension and we catch our breath and we're not sure what to do. But I think having a few of these sort of go to ideas can be really helpful. And, you know, as Alexis alluded to, I think often there's this power imbalance, but certainly if there's also, you know, sort of privilege involved or a lack of privilege by,
[00:31:47] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:31:48] Sally Clarke: whatever virtue, then that can certainly, you know, be something where those of us.
[00:31:52] Sally Clarke: Thank you. You know, including myself, I do have privilege. I can start to use that in quite a, um, an impact, hopefully an impactful way as well to support those who perhaps don't feel comfortable in using the voice yet.
[00:32:03] Kim Scott: Yeah, as I was writing this book, I had taken, it was one afternoon, I took my kids to Baskin Robbins, and there was a big group of sort of teenage boys ahead of us in line. And, um, One of the boys in the group started sort of razzing the woman who was scooping ice cream and asking her what nationality she was and then they all started doing this and I remember I remember thinking okay Like I'm the world's biggest hypocrite if I don't intervene in any way And I was sort of hoping the guy there was a guy in front of me in line between the boys and me and I was kind of hoping he would say something but He was like immediately started looking at his phone, and I just I was like all right this I think they're bullying her, and I think I'm gonna try a you statement, so and I didn't know what to say so I said you And then they all looked at me, and I said are you being respectful?
[00:33:01] Kim Scott: And
[00:33:02] Alexis Zahner: Mmm.
[00:33:03] Kim Scott: was what came to mind. I didn't know what I was going to say. And that was why this you helped. And to my great surprise, they all looked ashamed and they knocked it off. I was like, I felt so good. But if I hadn't said anything, it would have been one of those things where I wake up at three in the morning, kind of kicking my, you suffer a little bit of moral injury as the silent bystander.
[00:33:25] Kim Scott: Uh, in addition to not helping this other person.
[00:33:29] Alexis Zahner: You do, Kim, and I'm so glad you've highlighted that because it's almost that silence is, is being complicit in what you're
[00:33:36] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:33:37] Alexis Zahner: Whether we, we think we're doing it or not, inaction is actually a choice and it's
[00:33:41] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:33:41] Alexis Zahner: in what we're seeing and that does sit really uncomfortably if you, if you are actually not okay with what you're witnessing.
[00:33:48] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if we go back to the guy who said, I think we should switch seats, he was being an upstander in that moment.
[00:33:54] Alexis Zahner: Yeah.
[00:33:56] Kim Scott: I think he did it for several different reasons. One, he wanted to win the deal. So there's a practical side to this
[00:34:02] Alexis Zahner: Hmm.
[00:34:02] Kim Scott: There's an emotional side to this. He liked his colleague and he didn't like seeing her get ignored.
[00:34:09] Kim Scott: And that was kind of what was happening. To me in the basket, I was like, gosh, why are they a feel for this woman who's scooping ice cream and and third, there's like a practical side to it. He, the guy in the meeting knew it would be easier for them to hear it. from him than from her. And I figured those boys are going to be more likely to respond to someone who looked like their mother, you know,
[00:34:38] Alexis Zahner: Yeah.
[00:34:41] Kim Scott: so that was part of the risk there was, it was, it was going to be more efficient for me to stand up for her and then for her to stand up to them.
[00:34:48] Kim Scott: Uh, and fourth, there was like a self protective. I didn't want to wake up at three in the morning thinking about this, you know,
[00:34:55] Sally Clarke: Been there before.
[00:34:56] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:34:58] Alexis Zahner: absolutely.
[00:34:59] Sally Clarke: I think we've had such a beautiful exploration of, of so many ways that we as leaders can start to take steps to work against bias, prejudice, and bullying and, and really start to sort of shine a light in our workplaces on how to do that and, and within our teams, I'd love to just zoom out for a second and sort of explore, because, you Radical respect sits in this quadrant of where we're seeing collaboration and also respect for the individuality
[00:35:26] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:35:26] Sally Clarke: If we, when we zoom out to sort of a cultural level, can you give us some examples of what this actually looks like in workplaces that really embody radical respect?
[00:35:36] Kim Scott: Yeah. I mean, one of the things that I recommend that leaders do that, that helps create a more respectful work environment is just sit down with your team and ask everyone to identify what's your red word. What's the word that if somebody uses it, uh, is, is going to make it hard for you to hear anything else they have to say.
[00:35:59] Kim Scott: Yeah. And, uh, and this is like it, it, uh, it elicits some surprising responses, but it helps people get to know each other and be more aware. Like if you call me a girl instead of a woman, it's for me, that's like finger, you know, fingernails on a chalkboard. And, and so it's useful for the people I work with to know it's easier.
[00:36:23] Kim Scott: It's going to be easier. for the people I work with to refer to me as a woman than it is for me to change that emotional response that I'm going to have. And, uh, and also, uh, you know, I, I consider it a reasonable response. Uh, but, but I'm not going to say that every woman has to feel the same way I do about that use of language.
[00:36:46] Kim Scott: Uh, different people have different points of view, but if you're working with me that, you know, and, and helping people to understand this. I about one another is, I think, really useful because sometimes when we think about unconscious bias, we think about every single unconscious bias that exists on the planet, and that's a really long list.
[00:37:06] Kim Scott: But if we remind ourselves, like, let's just make sure that we are are aware of how the people who in this room feel, then I think and and how we think. Uh, and, and what our response is to, to words and phrases, then I think that's achievable. Like, we can, we can be aware of those biases and we can, and we cannot trot on those, um, on those raw nerves.
[00:37:38] Kim Scott: And so that's one thing. Another, go ahead.
[00:37:42] Alexis Zahner: I was just going to say Kim, I love, I love that you chose the word girl there. Um, as a female who works in typically male dominated industries, I've worked in things like media and marketing for a long time. Um, There are other biases that I think are a little more insidious that go unrecognized as well.
[00:37:59] Alexis Zahner: And one for me is age. And as a
[00:38:01] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:38:02] Alexis Zahner: who, I'm a millennial female, so I'm in my early 30s now, I've either felt that it's my gender that is a struggle to overcome that power dynamic, Or it's my age, which is an interesting one because I think we so often want to cling to you. However, I've always felt it's such a disadvantage
[00:38:19] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:38:20] Alexis Zahner: to be taken seriously because of the way I look and because I've come into a consulting role quite young.
[00:38:25] Alexis Zahner: And so when
[00:38:26] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:38:26] Alexis Zahner: girl, I
[00:38:28] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:38:29] Alexis Zahner: like my toes are curling in my shoes. I'm
[00:38:31] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:38:32] Alexis Zahner: Do not call me that.
[00:38:33] Kim Scott: Yeah. Yes. Yes.
[00:38:34] Alexis Zahner: that because I, I think there's also often biases that are intersectional with things
[00:38:40] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:38:40] Alexis Zahner: something like age makes it even more challenging for me to be taken seriously.
[00:38:44] Alexis Zahner: So I just wanted to pause on that one for a moment. Cause that's a very real experience for me. Yeah.
[00:38:51] Kim Scott: interesting, like, I felt for, for a long time in my career, I was, I was often the youngest person in the room, and then it seems like it changed overnight, and all of a sudden I was the oldest person in the room, and, and I was like, whoa, uh, and so the ageism is really interesting how that, how that plays, plays out, uh, yes,
[00:39:16] Sally Clarke: And I think also, and I'm curious, very excited for you to continue to sort of share these ideas, but one thing that I was thinking is all that I've had an occasion where I've, you know, shared something that is a bit of a trigger for me. And someone actually came up to me after that sort of team meeting that we'd had and asked me. Really in a very curious way. Like, um, thank you so much for sharing that. I want to understand more because this is something I haven't heard of before. I just want to understand more of where that comes from and kind
[00:39:41] Kim Scott: yeah,
[00:39:42] Sally Clarke: it can really help us to understand that we just sort of assume what other people's triggers might be, or
[00:39:47] Kim Scott: yeah.
[00:39:48] Sally Clarke: is the way that other people look at the world.
[00:39:49] Sally Clarke: So I think it
[00:39:50] Alexis Zahner: Yeah.
[00:39:50] Sally Clarke: kind of candor can really shift the culture in a team.
[00:39:53] Kim Scott: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And, and, and it can, uh, create space for curiosity, you know, and, uh, and I think that's really helped. Like there was another, there was a story I was telling in, uh, And a presentation I gave and and I was offended because this guy referred to me as a pretty girl and I assumed it was everybody understood why that why I found that annoying and several people came up to me afterwards and were like, why is that?
[00:40:25] Kim Scott: You know, and I explain, and not only men, women did too. And, and so I think it's useful to share that we, we have different reactions to different words. And if we're going to work well together, it's useful to know where those, uh, Uh, we're, we're those reactions so, so that we don't accidentally step on someone else's landmine, you know, or, or step on someone else's raw nerve.
[00:40:52] Kim Scott: So I think that's 1 thing that leaders can do. Another thing leaders can do is to teach people to flag bias. So I like this purple flag. That's what my team, but other people, other leaders I've worked with have encouraged their team, uh, have talked to their team about the purple flag and their team have said, ah, I don't like that.
[00:41:11] Kim Scott: I'd rather just say, I don't think you meant that the way it sounded. So talk to your team, figure out how, how are we going to, uh, to, to disrupt bias when we notice it, because it's going to happen. And, and, and the more often we can disrupt it, then we change patterns of speech that are, you know, we get these elephants out of the room.
[00:41:35] Kim Scott: And I think that's another thing leaders can do about bias. But in the case of prejudice, I think leaders need to create a space for conversation to talk about where is that line on this team? Because it's easy for me to sit here and say, Oh, There's a line between one person's freedom to believe whatever they want, but they can't impose that on others.
[00:41:55] Alexis Zahner: Yeah.
[00:41:56] Kim Scott: mean they can't wear t shirts with political slogans? Like, figure it out on your team. Where, where is that line? Um, Um, and then in the case of bullying, I think it's really important that leaders create consequences for bullying, uh, conversational consequences. In the moment, you got a D platform, a bully and a meeting, uh, you, you want to create compensation consequences.
[00:42:22] Kim Scott: You don't want to pay people who bully others high bonuses because then you're rewarding the behavior. And last but not least, career consequences. You never want to promote the bully. There comes a moment on too many teams. history is when the jerks begin to win and that's the moment when the culture begins to lose.
[00:42:42] Kim Scott: But at a certain point, you actually have to tell, you have to give this person feedback. Because as we said earlier, sometimes people aren't aware, uh, that they are bullying. And if they don't change their behavior, then you've got to fire them. And that is hard often because maybe that person, you know, I can't afford a hole on my team and My response is, it's better to have a hole than an asshole.
[00:43:06] Kim Scott: So create those consequences.
[00:43:10] Alexis Zahner: Love that.
[00:43:13] Sally Clarke: so resonant for us and I think that you know, it's It's so true. And I can imagine there's all kinds of sort of reasons why, especially when bullies are also charismatic and often
[00:43:22] Kim Scott: Yeah,
[00:43:23] Sally Clarke: sales role. I'm thinking,
[00:43:24] Kim Scott: yeah.
[00:43:25] Sally Clarke: my time as a finance lawyer, I've certainly encountered some bullies who were incredibly good at the business that they did
[00:43:32] Alexis Zahner: Yeah.
[00:43:32] Sally Clarke: it, you know, a difficult perhaps business case.
[00:43:35] Sally Clarke: But then from a culture perspective, it is so key. So
[00:43:38] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:43:39] Alexis Zahner: Yeah.
[00:43:39] Sally Clarke: than an asshole. Thank you so much for that
[00:43:42] Kim Scott: And, and I will, I love to say that cause it makes me laugh, but I'm also going to wave the flag on myself because, because a lot of people feel that asshole is a gendered term. Uh, and I'm just going to say, I mean, women and all of us, all human beings can behave like jerks. So, uh, I'm not trying to single out, uh, what one gender.
[00:44:06] Sally Clarke: No,
[00:44:06] Alexis Zahner: Yeah.
[00:44:07] Sally Clarke: And I also love, you know, throughout this conversation that you've highlighted that we are all, in fact, we all, and I think, you know, I certainly own that I have bullying behavior
[00:44:16] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:44:16] Sally Clarke: unconsciously at the time, but really owning that as well and understanding it that it's not a, It's not the bad people and I'm a good person.
[00:44:23] Kim Scott: Yeah.
[00:44:24] Sally Clarke: that's quite natural for
[00:44:25] Alexis Zahner: Yeah.
[00:44:26] Sally Clarke: light on it, having candid conversations around it and shifting towards this model of radical respect
[00:44:31] Kim Scott: Yes,
[00:44:32] Sally Clarke: help us to start to, to shift out of that,
[00:44:34] Kim Scott: yeah, and I, I think what you said there is, I just want to double click on it because it's so important. I think when it comes to radical respect, we need to have a growth mindset because all of us are make these bias, prejudice, bullying mistakes, probably multiple times a day. And, uh, and as my son's baseball coach said to him, you can't do right if you don't know what you're doing wrong.
[00:45:00] Kim Scott: And so if none of us are perfect, uh, and, and, you know, almost all of us have good intentions. And because we have good intentions, we want feedback when, you know, so that we can become the people who we want to be.
[00:45:17] Sally Clarke: Amazing. Thank you so much, Kim. We could ask you questions for days, but we'd love to finish just by sort of thinking of the, the leaders who are listening right now and really excited about the concept of bringing in more radical respect to their own leadership, to their own workplaces. Of course, an important first step is to buy and read your incredible book, to listen
[00:45:36] Kim Scott: Yes.
[00:45:38] Sally Clarke: But do you have any sort of first steps right now for someone who's thinking they want to. into this space of radical respect starting right now. What's a great starting point for them?
[00:45:49] Kim Scott: One of the things that I found most helpful for me when I was reading this book, uh, is to, uh, to hire a bias buster, hire someone, uh, and if you don't have budget for this, you can ask someone to do this, but you, you as the leader, when you solicit feedback about What are the things that I am saying are doing that that are biased that you want to know and and when and when you solicit that feedback and reward the candor when you get it, then you demonstrate to everyone that these are things we all need to work on, and I'm not perfect either.
[00:46:32] Kim Scott: There was one leader who I worked with who tended to stand up in front of his company. and say, you guys, and that for some of the women on the team was sort of, again, like fingernails on the chalkboard. And he was very receptive to the feedback. And in fact, he said to every, he bought those, you know, those styrofoam rockets on her rubber band that you can shoot at people.
[00:46:57] Kim Scott: He said to his, he bought those and he said, if I stand up and say, you guys, I want you to shoot the rockets at me. And so he made it lighthearted. Uh, and he showed people that I'm working on this and, uh, and, you know, I'm not a terrible person because I say you guys, obviously, but I want to change the way I'm talking.
[00:47:17] Kim Scott: So I think the more you can, uh, bring, uh, some agency and some grace to this conversation, uh, and the more you can show that, you know, you're not perfect and that you're open to the feedback. The easier it is for you to take shame out of the game, because shame is not going to help us move forward here.
[00:47:40] Alexis Zahner: Kim, a brilliant point to finish on. I love this idea of taking that personal accountability as the leader. To show that this is something that we as an individual and as a team can invite people in to work on and really dispel that, that felt shame that we might experience through the process. Thank you so much for joining us on We Are Human Leaders.
[00:48:02] Alexis Zahner: It's been an absolute pleasure to sit down with you today.
[00:48:05] Kim Scott: Thank you all so much for having me.