Feeling Invisible? The Game Changing Impact of Mattering at Work with Zach Mercurio
Zach Mercurio Ph.D. - Author, Researcher and Keynote Speaker
Zach Mercurio is a researcher, leadership development facilitator, and speaker specializing in purposeful leadership, mattering, and meaningful work. He is the author of The Power of Mattering: How Leaders Can Create a Culture of Significance. Zach advises leaders in organizations worldwide on practices for building cultures that promote well-being, motivation, and performance. He holds a Ph.D. in organizational learning, performance, and change from Colorado State University, where he serves as a senior fellow at the Center for Meaning and Purpose and as an instructor in the Organizational Learning, Performance, and Change program.
When was the last time someone reminded you that you matter?
That your unique, brilliant and one of a kind self was irreplaceable? The sad fact is, that for many of us we probably can’t remember the last time we felt like we mattered, especially in our workplaces. And we want to change that.
In this incredible episode we’re discussing The Power of Mattering with Zach Mercurio. We admire Zach’s work, so much so he’s officially our first repeat guest on We Are Human Leaders! His poignant new book The Power of Mattering: How Leaders Can Create a Culture of Significance is arguably one of the most needed in the world right now!
In this conversation Zach shares with us the damning data on the state of work–despite the billions of dollars of investment made in employee engagement, retention, wellbeing, belonging, you name it–we’re more disengaged and unhappy than ever before. Why? Well because despite it all, we still don’t feel like we truly matter. And this is an innate human need that can’t be overlooked.
Zach shares that “honing the skills to create a culture of significance is at the heart of revitalizing the health of our workplaces and workers.” We couldn’t agree more. Mattering is much more than a means to create productivity and engagement at work. It’s a way of making sure everyone knows that they are innately needed, unique and what they do matters to others. Mattering is a fundamental human needs for all of us, and for that reason alone should be motivation to prioritise it.
Learn more about Zach Mercurio, and find his latest book here:
Find Zach Mercurio on LinkedIn.
Get your copy of The Power of Mattering: How Leaders Can Create a Culture of Significance from Harvard Business Review Press here.
Episode Transcript:
[00:00:00] Alexis Zahner: When was the last time that someone reminded you that you matter, that your unique, brilliant, and one of a kind self was irreplaceable? The sad fact is that for many of us, we probably can't remember the last time we felt like we mattered. Especially in our workplaces, and we wanna change that. Welcome to We Are Human Leaders.
[00:00:34] I'm Alexis Zahner, and together with my co-host Sally Clarke. Today we're discussing the Power of Mattering with Zach Mercurio I. We admire Zach's work so much. So he's officially our first ever repeat guest on We are human Leaders and his poignant new book, the Power of Mattering, how Leaders Can Create A Culture of Significant is arguably one of the most needed in the world right now.
[00:01:02] In this conversation, Zach shares with us the damning data around the state of work. Despite the billions of dollars of investment made in employee engagement, retention, wellbeing, belonging, you name it, we are more disengaged and unhappy than ever before. Why? Well, despite it all, we still don't feel like we truly matter.
[00:01:25] And this is an innate human need that can't be overlooked. Zach Mecurio is a researcher, leadership development facilitator and speaker specializing in purposeful leadership mattering and meaningful work. He is the author of The Power of Mattering. How leaders can create a culture of significance. Zach advises leaders in organizations worldwide on practices for building cultures that promote wellbeing, motivation, and performance.
[00:01:56] He holds a PhD in organizational learning Performance and Change from Colorado State University, where he serves as a senior fellow at the Center for Meaning and Purpose, and as an instructor in organizational learning Performance and Change program. Zach shares that honing the skills to create a culture of significance is at the heart of revitalizing the health of our workplaces and workers.
[00:02:24] We couldn't agree more. Now, let's dive into the power of mattering. Welcome back to We are Human Leaders, Zach, and you are officially the very first person we get to say that to, and it's such a pleasure to have you on the podcast again. And before we get into your exciting new book that you've just released, we'd love if we could take a moment, Zach, to get to know you a little bit better and perhaps what's changed or what's new in the journey that's brought you to the important work that you are doing now.
[00:02:56] Zach Mercurio: Yeah. Well I'm excited to be back. I'm glad I'm the first repeat guests. I think a lot's happened. Two years ago we talked. Mm-hmm. And one of the things that has been prevalent on my mind is that we can't ignore the evidence anymore. Someone asked me, you know, why did you want to write this book, the Power of Mattering?
[00:03:18] And I said, I didn't wanna write this book. I felt that I had to write this book. When we look at what's happening with rising disengagement, loneliness across the globe, mental health issues. There's one underlying data point that's consistent with those, and that is that people feel more unseen, unheard, unvalued, and unneeded than ever.
[00:03:41] 30% of people in a report after we talked indicated they felt invisible at work. Almost 65% of people said they felt underappreciated and unappreciated in work. There's been Gallup released their latest engagement report in January. It was the lowest it's been in a decade. That's despite 10 years. Of the employee engagement industry becoming a $1 billion industry.
[00:04:05] And if you look at two data points, one is that over 40% of people said they didn't think anybody cared about them as a person in work. And only 30% said someone invested in their unique potential. So what I've been seeing in my work, and I know last time we talked, we talked about the experience of meaningfulness and meaningfulness in work.
[00:04:22] I think the title was, is Meaningful Work The New Key Performance Indicator, right?
[00:04:27] Alexis Zahner: Yeah.
[00:04:28] Zach Mercurio: Someone's work won't matter to someone. Until they feel that they matter.
[00:04:33] Sally Clarke: Yeah. There's so much data even in those last two years since we spoke, Zach, that it really sounds like this is a book that needed to be written.
[00:04:41] It's certainly one that's, I think through the conversations we've been having and also the research we've been involved in ourselves, we're really seeing this sort of urgency that this really is a sort of a centerpiece to a lot of the things that are going on at work, whether it's. Sort of a stagnation in productivity and you know, increasing burnout and just this sense of, I think for people, this real questioning of why would I, what would be my reason for really showing up and giving my heart and soul and leaning into the work that I do.
[00:05:10] And to sort of take it back almost to a basic level, I'd love if you could unpack for us what is the mattering instinct, and why does mattering matter, particularly in the context of work
[00:05:20] Zach Mercurio: when you were first born. Everybody listening, the first thing you did scientists find is you reached out your arms to find somebody to care for you.
[00:05:30] It's called the grasp reflex. It's our most primal reflex as human beings. In fact, you sought to matter to someone before you sought to eat food. Let's do a thought experiment. Nobody would be listening right now if at some point in our lives we hadn't mattered enough to another human being to keep us alive.
[00:05:48] So it is a primal instinct to matter. Now, as we grow up and we go to work, it turns into the fundamental need to feel seen, heard, valued, and needed by the people around us. When that need is met, we experience what psychologists call mattering the experience of feeling significant to those around us.
[00:06:05] That comes from feeling valued and knowing how we add value to them. I think it is important right now, like to distinguish mattering from things like belonging or inclusion. Belonging is feeling part of a group and connected to a group. Inclusion is feeling like you can take an active role in that group.
[00:06:23] Mattering is feeling significant to group members. Now, what is really important about this and exciting and hopeful, while we have all this data or it's overwhelming, loneliness, epidemic, disengagement, crisis, you name it, crisis is the research on mattering shows us that we can do something about it in our next interaction, and the solution isn't programmatic.
[00:06:44] It's interactional, meaning we can re-engineer how we interact with one another to give them the experience of mattering.
[00:06:53] Alexis Zahner: Zach, in your experience, how overlooked is mattering to leaders in organizations? To me, it feels like a deeply personal issue and one that we would seemingly look to complicate with various other solutions.
[00:07:06] Before we looked at this as such a fundamental need.
[00:07:09] Zach Mercurio: Yes. I think it's overlooked because it's so basic. You know, how often do we consciously talk about eating lunch? Right, right. Yeah. It is such a basic need, but we very quickly experience what would happen when we don't eat. You can't ignore it. When an instinct isn't met, you can't ignore it.
[00:07:28] As human beings, when a fundamental need is met, you can't ignore it. The mind and body will react, and what we've been seeing is. Two things. One is when people feel insignificant, they either act out in withdrawal, so they either withdraw, they stay silent, they isolate. For example, quiet, quitting. I don't know if that made it to where you are yet.
[00:07:47] That was a trend in Oh yeah. It's a trend in the states that spread globally. Yeah. Let's just think about that. The notion that you should spend one third of your life doing the bare minimum as a good idea went viral. Mm-hmm.
[00:08:00] Alexis Zahner: Crazy
[00:08:01] Zach Mercurio: and quiet. Quitting is the inevitable withdrawal response. To feeling insignificant.
[00:08:05] Now either we withdraw or we act out in desperation, right? Complaining, blaming, protesting, gossiping, so-called toxic behaviors are most often the result of people who feel unseen, unheard unvalued, and are clamoring for the attention that they're not getting. So just like feeling, you know, having an instinct to eat or to sleep isn't met our bodies and our minds will react.
[00:08:30] I feel like we're experiencing it right now.
[00:08:33] Sally Clarke: It's so interesting, Zachary. 'cause I feel like I sort of instinctively thought when people like mattering that there would be withdrawal, perhaps the cynicism dimension of burnout would emerge and perhaps also potentially learned helplessness where people are just sort of really leaning out and giving up.
[00:08:47] But the fact that you highlight that it can also kind of manifest in these desperate sort of behaviors almost to kind of, hey, look at me, to really kind of garner attention, even if in a very toxic way. That's a side of it I hadn't actually thought about. Is that something the research shows?
[00:09:03] Zach Mercurio: Yeah. Let's look at the predictors of workplace gossip, for example.
[00:09:07] A lot of people think gossip is the result of someone being negative. The number one predictor of gossip is what's called psychological contract violation. And what that means, it's a fancy word, but it means that my expectation of fair treatment from you has been violated as a human being, as a supervisor.
[00:09:24] So if I can't speak out to you, I'm gonna speak up to someone else. I know you had Dr. Amy Edmondson on. All of this actually comes back to childhood attachment. What I mean by that is that when we feel seen and heard and like we matter to an adult, we develop secure attachment. So we can go out, experiment, take risks, learn, because we know that when we come back, someone has our back.
[00:09:48] We already matter. Psychological safety and other concepts like it are really just childhood attachment in the workplace. It's not as nice to talk about that, but that need for attachment doesn't go away. So, for example, I can go out and experiment, take risks and learn because I know that I matter to someone and someone has my back.
[00:10:07] You know, that's called psychological safety, for example. So if I don't have that safe place, if I don't have that secure base. I will do anything to find it. If that means complaining to someone, if that means venting, if that means finding someone who will commiserate with me, that means finding one person who will listen to me and agree with me, I will do it, or I'll protest defiance and protest.
[00:10:32] Martin Luther King Jr. Said, protest is the language of the unheard. So acts of desperation. Many of the most toxic employees that leaders have asked me to work with are the most unseen, unheard and undervalued employees,
[00:10:46] Sally Clarke: which just presents such an amazing opportunity, I imagine, because when we can create that connection, I can imagine there's potentially a transformative impact.
[00:10:55] Zach Mercurio: Absolutely. Most people don't need to be fixed. They need to be understood. And a lot of times we try to evaluate people before we understand them. And this is especially true in the workplace. We have tons of labels, difficult person, high performer, low performer. How you see somebody though is how you treat them.
[00:11:12] How you treat them is usually how they see themselves and how they see themselves is how they act.
[00:11:17] Alexis Zahner: Now Zach, we are gonna dive into your brilliant model in just a moment, but I thought I might just pause before we move on. You've highlighted some of the behaviors that feel like they'd be very noticeable in individuals and in the workplace.
[00:11:29] For people who don't matter, what are some of the signs that we have a culture where people do matter.
[00:11:35] Zach Mercurio: So mattering is a prerequisite for things like motivation, resilience, wellbeing in workplace cultures, and one of the things that I think an especially powerful signal is that if people are speaking up and sharing their voice with you, that is a good sign.
[00:11:56] When I go to knowing that the science of attachment, if I go to a family's house or barbecue or whatever, and their kids are being loud in front of them, that's a good sign. And the same is true. We don't change our human psychology as we go into work. If people are talking, giving feedback, they're having open conversations, that means they feel that their voice is significant.
[00:12:18] So people will speak up when they believe their voice is significant.
[00:12:21] Sally Clarke: Amazing. Sorry, I just had the, I had, I know. I could see you wanted to jump in. I'm glad I keep having this, this idea and I'm like, oh, this is a sidebar. Don't go there. But I feel partly because two things. One is I grew up in a household of anxious attachment.
[00:12:34] So when I was a corporate finance lawyer working 80 hours a week and feeling zero mattering, it was almost like coming home in a way. And I think that's almost what attracted me to that work environment. Yeah, that's been something that I've kind of, after going through a burnout and sort of, you know, evaluating what had sort of drawn me to be in that situation, which was so far from who I authentically am, but it was absolutely that kind of alignment between what I knew growing up and what that work environment was like.
[00:12:59] Zach Mercurio: So I think people are speaking up, right? I think also because they know that they matter. The language of belief is there. So one of the things that leaders do that show people they matter, is they give them the indisputable evidence of their significance. So one example I have is we work with a national Park service facilities manager here, and one of the things that he does is every Friday he sends pictures via email.
[00:13:24] Of projects his staff worked on. So it could be like park visitors walking over a bridge or using a repaired building or walking on a sidewalk. And this is all he does. He just writes, look what you did. But you can't argue with that. You can't be like, oh, I didn't do anything valuable. You seeing visitors using a bridge, you repaired.
[00:13:42] So leaders who do this well give people the indisputable evidence of their significance, so they start to just believe it. And I know that their mission, like the National Park Service that I work with here in the States, their mission is to preserve unencumbered the natural and cultural resources for this in future generations.
[00:13:59] I know that because their people just talk about it like it's just a day in the office. When impact becomes normal, in all occupations is a good signal that people actually believe it and they see the evidence of their significance. You'll also see high levels of confidence. So the two beliefs that mattering insights is self-esteem, the belief that I'm worthy and self-efficacy, the belief that I'm capable.
[00:14:23] So you'll probably see people trying new things, volunteering for things that they may not even have the skills to do yet, but they wanna learn because what? Because they know someone has their back, they know someone already believes in them. And confidence. A lot of times we think confidence is the result of an individual becoming confident, but it's.
[00:14:43] Of knowing that we matter to someone enough so we can go out and try new things.
[00:14:47] Sally Clarke: Incredible. I think this is a perfect moment for us to start to delve into the NAN model that you've developed zag to kind of start to unpack what it really means for leaders to develop an environment of mattering and seeing those incredible outcomes.
[00:15:02] And so you outline noticing, so how to truly see people noticing how to truly hear people affirming how to show people that they are significant. Needing how to show people that they're needed. We're really curious and the entire model is incredible and really beautifully set out in the book, but we'd love to really sort of double click here on affirming and needing.
[00:15:25] Can you start by sharing with us what is affirmation and why is it so important in a work context?
[00:15:31] Zach Mercurio: Well, the Latin root of the word affirm is affirmer, and it means to firm up or make stronger, and that's important to know because affirmation is different than appreciation or recognition. A lot of times the default is to have an appreciation program or a recognition program, but appreciation and showing general gratitude for who someone is.
[00:15:52] Recognition is showing general gratitude for what someone does, but affirmation is showing someone how their specific uniqueness makes a specific difference. You cannot affirm someone through a program or an initiative or on a kudos platform. Affirmation is interpersonally developed. It takes someone seeing and revealing and illuminating someone's unique gifts.
[00:16:15] That's one side of it. Then showing them the indisputable evidence that those gifts and they make a difference. And that gets back to why did I share the Latin root? Well, I like words, but I also love the meaning of that because when you do that, you're giving people evidence in their environment that their significant, so it strengthens and firms up their belief that they're significant.
[00:16:39] So I think that's really important that it's interpersonally derived. It requires me to know you, to reveal your unique gifts, to illuminate your unique gifts, and it requires me to show you the downstream impact of you.
[00:16:54] Sally Clarke: Beautiful. I think what I'm hearing is, and it comes back to what you said earlier about people not needing to be fixed, but to be understood.
[00:17:01] And that sort of understanding as a precursor to be able to really affirm the person, uh, for the unique individual that they are. And I'd love it if you could share, is that perhaps an example from your practice of where you've seen leaders who've sort of taken that on board and being able to really create an environment of affirmation and how that's impacted individuals in their team.
[00:17:21] Zach Mercurio: So that example, I love that example of that National Park Service manager, right, of taking the photos. I thought that was very creative. I'll actually give a personal example of this in action. I got asked to work with a group of commercial plumbing contractors after a 14 hour shift. You know, go talk about purpose and mattering.
[00:17:40] I was very nervous 'cause I was like, this is gonna be difficult. And I got up in front of this group. And it was very clear that they wanted to be anywhere else but in this room, I mean, they literally moved their chairs away from me and started eating their like catered sandwiches together. And I was just up in the front of the room.
[00:17:59] I. But one of the things I had done is some research on the company before I went and spoke with them, and I realized that they did the plumbing infrastructure of this new plaza near my house, and it is the plaza in which my son's favorite donut shop is located. And so what we would do is on Saturday mornings when my youngest was born, he was feeling a little left out and we would go there.
[00:18:23] It was like this ritual, me and him. Every morning we got some much needed. Connection time, unneeded calories. But we would get together and we would enjoy this. And I had a picture of him stuffing his face with a donut and he was closing his eyes and I just put it on the screen and I said, what do you notice here?
[00:18:40] And very quickly, one person in the back, a plumber raised her hand and she said, that's the exchange, which is the name of the plaza. We worked on that project. Instantly, everybody snapped to attention. I said, do you see this joy on this kid's face? This is his favorite time of the week. We have connection here.
[00:18:59] You all made that happen. This building wouldn't be here if it wasn't for you. It was an amazing session. But a journeyman plumber came up to me after, and he said to me, I've been doing this job for 30 years and I've never thought about my job that way. I've never thought about the impact that I make.
[00:19:16] And that company has since taken that on and made sure. Before people work on a project, they very clearly see why it matters, and it's an example of showing somebody the indisputable evidence of their significance. I mean, that's one side of it, showing them how they are making a difference.
[00:19:33] Alexis Zahner: It's so powerful, Zach, and I think in a world where we seemingly are looking quite often for this external validation through social media and all these sorts of mediums that.
[00:19:44] We quite often really struggle to just find our sense of where we contribute and where we can serve the world, and such a small moment of showing people how something that they've done has changed the lives of other people, even if it's just their Saturday morning donut. Feels to me to kind of be on like a very human level, like a coming home to self.
[00:20:05] Again, I feel like the work you do, and this sense of mattering is about reconnecting people to their deepest sense of what it means to be a human being. And the workplace is just one way where we can exhibit our contribution to the world. But the impact of mattering is so much deeper and so much more innately felt than that.
[00:20:24] Zach Mercurio: One of the things I think that great leaders do is they illuminate in others what they don't see in themselves. Mm mm And one side of it is showing people the difference that they make. The other side of affirmation is showing people how they make a difference. Yeah. So one of the things that leaders do routinely, that I see who create experiences of mattering is they go beyond the thank you or good job, and they actually show people the difference they make and exactly how they make it.
[00:20:50] And one of the things we uncovered in our research for this book was that a lot of people focus on strengths and talents when you're affirming somebody. But what we found is leaders actually focused on some other gifts, and I started calling them gifts because everybody freely offers us things every day.
[00:21:08] They give us their gift. And what we found is there are four unique gifts that every person offers us and leaders tend to illuminate these. One is our strengths, so what we love and what we're good at. But the second is our purpose, our unique impact. So what's something only you bring to a room? What is something that only this person brings to your day, that unique impact you make?
[00:21:34] The other thing that they do is they reveal people's perspective. So how do they see the world and how is that perspective valued? It's like when somebody misses a meeting, I had this one leader who instead of just saying, Hey, we wished you were there, they say, Hey, I wrote down something that I wanted to get your perspective on.
[00:21:53] I mean, just that, that feeling of feeling missed, that my perspective is valued is so affirming. And then finally, wisdom. Every single person, no matter how junior, senior, they all have wisdom. Uh, wisdom is what we've learned through only living our lives. And so my favorite question to ask is, what is something that only you can teach me?
[00:22:15] And I think that great leaders reveal those four things, strengths, purpose, perspective or wisdom, and, and get creative in how they do that.
[00:22:24] Alexis Zahner: I love that, Zach, especially the wisdom piece being this culmination of our personal experiences that only we as a unique individual can hold. And I love the idea of this.
[00:22:33] We quite often hear this in the reverse mentoring sort of benefits as well, when the mentee actually contributes as much value to the mentor. And I love this way of sort of knowing that our worth and our value is inherent regardless of where we might be at in our journey. And such a powerful notion.
[00:22:51] Zach Mercurio: Yeah. And again, I have children and so I've seen the value of revealing wisdom. For example, if I am struggling with a creative problem, I'll often ask my 7-year-old, yeah, Hey, you know, I have to give this presentation and I think it's kind of boring. How would you make it more interesting? And he said to me, I remember I asked him that question.
[00:23:11] He goes, why don't you draw it? Why don't you draw what you're talking about? And I was like, that's a great idea. So our children in our communities, our junior employees, our senior employees, everybody has this unique wisdom that they can share. And I think inviting that out is characteristics of a culture where people feel that they matter.
[00:23:34] Alexis Zahner: I love that. And I love the asking your children, 'cause I feel like it strips the layers of experience back to something more simple. And often we use the word pure when we're describing, you know, the actions and intentions of children. I love that. Now, Zach, one of the other letters we wanted to touch on in your model, and Sally's already mentioned it, that is needing, can you help us understand how we show people that they are needed in the work context?
[00:24:00] Zach Mercurio: Yes. One of the most powerful things that we've learned from our interviews is that people who feel that they matter, their leaders or their parents or someone in their community says some variation of these five words. If it wasn't for you. If it wasn't for you, this wouldn't be possible. If it wasn't for you, I wouldn't have made it through this week if it wasn't for you.
[00:24:24] I think there is no more powerful feeling than knowing that our presence and our absence means something to just one other person. So powerful and I think that's what it means to be human.
[00:24:35] Sally Clarke: Yeah. And it,
[00:24:36] Zach Mercurio: go ahead. I see. Yeah. I see. You're exciting. Thank
[00:24:38] Sally Clarke: you, Zach. It brings me back to the data again. I think because we are seeing such a real epidemic of loneliness of people who were, are working full time or really long hours really, but still experiencing disconnection and not feeling.
[00:24:50] A sense of connection in their work context and whether it's, you know, belonging, mattering, inclusion. There's all kinds of ways I think that this can manifest. And the concept of mattering, I think really encapsulates that deep psychological need that we all have. And yet it is being so often so sadly overlooked because I think work can be a place, and this might sound naive almost, but I think work can be such an amazing tool for us to use to actually foster a sense of mattering and purpose and.
[00:25:20] That sense of being valued for the unique individuals that we are, and yet we miss these opportunities all the time and kind of at scale. And it just feels like there's a real opportunity here for leaders who are able to really make that difference in individuals' lives. And I imagine also in the team context as well, because it's building these interpersonal relationships, but then having that form, the kind of culture of a team.
[00:25:46] Zach Mercurio: Yes, and what's powerful is that it's sometimes we think about forming the culture of a team in terms of these big initiatives, but culture is the product of interactions, daily interactions. So that's why I love that phrase. If it wasn't for you, you know, if it wasn't for you, just those five words. Think of someone who you rely on and work.
[00:26:10] In your life. Think about the last time you explicitly told them one of the problems in why mattering is so rare right now, that experience is because what's common sense is not common practice. We tend to rely on intuition. I'll just do the right thing, but intuition doesn't scale. Practices and skills do so if it wasn't for you as a practice.
[00:26:31] Another powerful way that I've seen people show people that they're needed. There was a director of a creative agency, ad agency that I was working with, and they do digital marketing, and there was a young account manager who was really struggling with confidence and he worked a lot on creative campaigns and what the manager did, the director ran data for campaigns that he was involved in and campaigns that he wasn't involved in.
[00:26:58] And she brought him the data and said, we are better when you're around. Showed him and it was remarkable. It was just so powerful. And he said like that was a fundamental moment in his career. What I love about that, she was very skilled, went and got the data. She went and showed him, and that's a skill.
[00:27:15] It's an interpersonal skill to show someone how they're needed. And the problem is, is that when people feel replaceable, they tend to act replaceable. When people feel irreplaceable, they tend to act irreplaceable. They show up and they commit. One of my favorite studies is in 1913, a French agricultural engineer named Max Ringman had individuals pull on a rope as hard as they could, and he attached it to a device called a nanometer that measures force.
[00:27:40] And then he had those individuals get in groups and pull on that rope as hard as they could, and he added up the total force readings for the individuals and for the groups. And what he found was remarkable. The individuals exerted more force than the groups on the rope. Why is that? Because the individuals knew that their effort was indispensable.
[00:28:00] It's called perceived indispensability of effort. We exert more effort when we feel that we're needed. So what happens in organizations when people feel like just a number, when they feel like just a cog when someone says, oh, we just need warm bodies here to fill these seats, right? Yeah. That whole adage, don't forget you're replaceable at work.
[00:28:19] That's antithetical to everything we know, motivates and inspires human being, and that's what this feeling needed is all about.
[00:28:26] Alexis Zahner: Zach, what's so fascinating, I distinctly recall when I was doing my masters and looking at sort of organizational psychology concepts like social loafing and group think and all of these sorts of things where you're speaking about is really the antidote to a lot of these challenges that we have.
[00:28:44] Really complicated in the psychology of how to overcome them as well.
[00:28:48] Zach Mercurio: Yes. I'm so glad you picked up on that. 'cause the ringman effect was co-opted and it was turned into social loafing because anytime psychologists can give you something to blame something else for. It feels really good. And it sells a lot of books.
[00:29:02] It does. Yeah. I'm serious. And what social loafing is the reason why someone just loafs just gets by. The reason why someone quiet quits is because they don't believe they're needed.
[00:29:12] Alexis Zahner: Yeah.
[00:29:12] Zach Mercurio: So it's not their problem. It's the environment's problem and leaders are part of the environment.
[00:29:17] Sally Clarke: Hmm. Amazing. Zach, we could talk for hours and hours and hours with you about these concepts and I think particularly it's something that I.
[00:29:25] You're really prompting me to think deeply about if it weren't for you, those words, because I think it's something that even l and I could probably say more to each other and there's just so much scope, I think for us to even have that reflection and think about the unique contributions and why someone is needed.
[00:29:41] And I know you speak also in the book about considering everyone as essential and the impact that that can have as well, of really shifting that mindset to the fact that everyone truly is essential. For some organizations will feel revolutionary at this point, but I think the impact can then also be quite revolutionary when we're thinking of scaling mattering.
[00:30:01] 'cause you mentioned also it is we can't scale intuition, but we can scale mattering. What does that look like? How might we go about that if we're as senior leaders in an organization?
[00:30:10] Zach Mercurio: I'll give you a story. I mean, after the pandemic, we worked with a global travel agency, and the travel agency was American Express Global Business Travel.
[00:30:21] And Mark who's there has, let me share this story. During the pandemic, he reached out to me after, and the travel industry was just crushed. I mean, if you think about a travel agent during that time trying to come out, come back out and reenter the workforce, he said that people were just. Crying in work, and he said, Zach, I've realized that this is a mattering problem.
[00:30:44] And one of the things we did is the first thing we did is we motivated everybody to see mattering as a basic human need, not as a mechanism to increase productivity or retention yet. So what we did is with all of their leaders, we asked them to think about the time in their life when they most believed that they mattered, and we had them actually spot the skills those people used in their lives to help them create that for them.
[00:31:07] Then we said, you know, do you want to do this for other people? So the first step I think, to scaling mattering is to make sure people are authentically motivated to do it and set the right intention that this is the right way to treat human beings. This is not a tactic to make more money or to get them to be more productive.
[00:31:26] It is treating the human as an end in themselves, not a means to an end. So once we did that, we actually had them identify the skills and practices. So all of the leaders got together. They looked at the noticed practices, the seeing and hearing practices, the affirming practices and the needing practices.
[00:31:42] And what we had them do is we had them articulate measurable behaviors for each of them that they would agree to as a team of 400 leaders. And they made a leadership charter for themselves, and the blueprint said. We believe every employee should feel noticed, affirmed and needed. And here are the commitments.
[00:32:02] Now, here's the kicker. They measured it, so they started measuring themselves on it, and then they measured their teams on how well they were doing it, and they gave this blueprint to the teams and said, this is what you can expect from me. And it was things like you can expect from me to be on camera.
[00:32:17] You can expect me to find an answer to a question. You can expect me to name your gifts, and if you're not, we want you to tell us. That turned into their blueprint and how they developed their leaders, how they evaluated their leaders, how they promoted their leaders in two years running. Now, their attrition has decreased by 50% and they have a 10% increase on last year's engagement surveys.
[00:32:45] So what the lesson is, is that you have to motivate people to do it for the right reasons. You have to measure the right skills. And I think thinking about these things as hard skills that can be learned and scaled is important. You have to share with everybody what they can expect from their leaders and measure leaders and teams on it.
[00:33:02] And then you have to consistently optimize your environment to remind people of the commitment.
[00:33:07] Alexis Zahner: It's a really practical, Zach. Thank you. And I think what's most potent about that is that. By doing what you've just described, mattering becomes just this implicit way of being around here. It goes from being something we're trying to achieve to being just the way we operate.
[00:33:24] It kind of rewrites the fundamental operating principles of a team and of an organization.
[00:33:29] Zach Mercurio: And I would also add that one of the most important ways to scale and evaluate mattering, mm-hmm is to start measuring behaviors, observe behaviors of people, and not just how you feel in the organization. Many of our engagement surveys and other instruments measure generally how someone felt when they were taking the survey.
[00:33:48] Yeah. But Sally was my leader, and I could get an assessment that says, how frequently does Sally check in on your energy level? One is never, five is always, that is something tangible. It also helps me not to judge Sally as a leader, but we're talking about behaviors. Yeah. Uh, and the same is true if Sally is then saying, what frequency?
[00:34:09] At which are you checking in on your team members energy levels? We can then have a conversation that looks at the perception and the reality.
[00:34:17] Alexis Zahner: Mm. Yeah.
[00:34:17] Zach Mercurio: And then this doesn't become vague like how transformational or authentic of a leader you are. It becomes how frequently are you doing the behavior? So the way to get better is to do more of the behavior.
[00:34:28] Alexis Zahner: Yeah.
[00:34:28] Zach Mercurio: So I really encourage organizations to start measuring behavior as the leading indicator for the feelings, like the lagging indicator of engagement or motivation. Those are lagging indicators of making sure people feel that they matter.
[00:34:40] Alexis Zahner: I think what's so important about that, Zach, is you've spoken about sort of the subjective impact of that, like the perception that employees have so that we can both hold leaders accountable to a very clear set of behaviors.
[00:34:53] But what I imagine that also allows us to do is see what behaviors are having the impact we want them to have, and changing some of the behaviors that perhaps we thought might create mattering but aren't. So it, it gives us that feedback on what's working as well.
[00:35:07] Zach Mercurio: Yeah, and that's why I think one of the things that, for example, in that gala report that you're looking at, is that those two drivers, no one at work cares about me as a person and I don't have someone at work that invests in my potential by unique potential.
[00:35:20] Those are all interactionally driven. So what I advocate for is that leaders should have the skills to be able to A, keep a pulse on the leading indicator of those things, which I believe is the experience of mattering, and they should have the skills to deliver that. So if you're listening here, whatever culture you say you want, if you want a collaborative culture, if you wanna innovative culture, do your leaders have the skills to create the leading indicators of those things?
[00:35:49] And I think that that's one of the reasons why we've gotten here is we've focused obsessively on lagging indicators like performance, productivity, engagement, and not on the leading indicator, which ultimately is human energy.
[00:36:00] Sally Clarke: Incredible. Zach, I think if it weren't for you, we wouldn't have this Amazing.
[00:36:05] I. Blueprint for creating a really incredible work environment and one where our basic psychological needs are met. And I think that can really shift the experience of work for a lot of people from something that has this kind of drudgery, overtone. You know, you gotta get through the week to really something that is.
[00:36:22] Enhances who they are, that uplifts and allows 'em to become a more real and authentic version of themselves. And we are so grateful for your work and for joining us again on we Are Human leaders. Our final question really is, aside from reading your incredible new book, if leaders are inspired right now to really start the journey towards creating a deeper culture of mattering, what would you advise them as their first step?
[00:36:45] Zach Mercurio: My first step for anybody is what I call schedule your good intention. I don't think anybody wakes up and wants to be an uncaring leader. I'm an optimist. I don't think that anybody wants their people to feel depleted or burned out or disengaged. I think sometimes we prioritize reacting to what's going on instead of investing in who is delivering what we need them to deliver on.
[00:37:11] And so I'm the nicest person in the world when I'm out walking my dog. I think of all the people I should thank, all of the thank you notes I should write, and then I get back to my office and I have this to-do list and I jump back into it. It's amazing how often we put off acts of kindness and compassion for answering another email.
[00:37:28] When you have that thought, I should check in on Sally. I should check in on so and so. I should write that. Thank you. Note I. Put it on your calendar, put it at the top of your to-do list. And I honestly, I think that's the first step. Schedule your good intentions and do the next smallest thing you can do to show someone that they matter.
[00:37:48] Your next great leadership act is really in your next interaction to focus there. And guess what? If you're a middle leader here, you do not need your organization's permission or approval to care about someone in your next interaction.
[00:38:02] Alexis Zahner: Zach, a very potent call to action for leaders at all levels. Thank you so much for being with us on We Are Human Leaders.
[00:38:11] For the second time, it has been an absolute privilege to sit down with you.
[00:38:21] Mattering is much, much more than a means to create productivity and engagement at work. It's a way of making sure everyone knows that they are innately needed. Unique and what they do matters in the lives of others. Mattering is a fundamental human need that we all share, and it's for that reason alone, we should be motivated to prioritize it.
[00:38:49] Zach MCC Rio's, latest book, the Power of Mattering is a brilliant practical guide to how we can, as leaders, make sure that those around us know and feel that they matter. It offers ways to connect with those around us so that they know they matter. And we think this should be in the toolkit of every single leader on earth.
[00:39:12] Find a link to the Power of Matter in and to Zach's research in our show notes at www dot. We are human leaders.com. Thanks for being with us for this episode, and by being here, you are part of the change, part of the positive ripple of human leadership into the world. We'll see you next time.