Leading through Truth, Power and Purpose with Ron Carucci
Welcome to the We Are Human Leaders podcast. In this episode we're talking to Ron Carucci on the practice and impact of being honest. Ron is the author of books including To Be Honest: Lead with the Power of Truth, Justice and Purpose, and he shares insights from 15 years of research into the four factors that help leaders create an environment where people are 16 times more likely to tell the truth, behave fairly and serve a greater good. We also delve into navigating a hybrid work environment and creating unity among dispersed teams – and the self-awareness leaders need, to do so successfully.
Ron Carucci has a 30-year track record helping CEOs and executives tackle challenges of strategy, organization and leadership in 25 countries at more than 100 companies. He is co-founder and managing partner at Navalent. He’s on the advisory board of Ethical Systems at New York University and is a speaker, a regular contributor to Harvard Business Review and Forbes, and author/co-author of eight books.
Ron shares a stream of practical insight into the inner work we need to do, to embody and lead with honesty, in our modern, complex and evolving work environment. Let’s delve in.
Find more from Ron Carucci and his company Navalent here.
Read Ron Carucci’s latest book ‘To Be Honest’, and find is previous published titles right here.
For accessible access, view the podcast with closed captions below and access the full conversation transcript.
Episode Transcript:
Spk0 Sally Clarke Spk1 Ron Carucci Spk2 Alexis Zahner
[00:00:09] spk_0: Welcome to the we are human leaders podcast. I'm Sally Clarke and today Alexis Zahner and I are talking to Ron Carucci on the practice and impact of being honest. Ron is the author of books, including to be honest lead with the power of truth justice and purpose and he shares insights from 15 years of research into the four factors that help leaders create an environment where people are 16 times more like To tell the truth, behave fairly and serve a greater good. We also delve into navigating a hybrid work environment and creating unity among dispersed teams and the self awareness leaders need to do so successfully. Ron Carucci has a 30-year track record helping ceos and executives tackle challenges of strategy, organization and leadership in 25 countries at more than 100 companies. He's co founder and managing partner at Neverland on the advisory board of Ethical Systems at New York University. He's a speaker, a regular contributor to Harvard Business Review and Forbes and author or co author of eight books. Ron shares a stream of practical insight into the inner work we need to do to embody and lead with honesty in our modern complex and evolving work environment. Let's Delve in Ron. It's a real delight to have you with us today on the We are Human Leaders podcast. Thanks so much for joining us.
[00:01:36] spk_1: My pleasure, Sally and Alexis. Thanks so much for having me.
[00:01:39] spk_0: We'd love to start by just understanding a little bit of your own story. So if you wouldn't mind sharing with us your personal journey to this incredibly important work that you're doing now.
[00:01:49] spk_1: Well, you know, we could devote multiple episodes all those years. But in a nutshell, I think, you know, I've always been fascinated with the organization of human endeavor at scale and what we as humans can do together that we can't do on our own. And I've spent the last 40 ish wow years. That's a big number years working in a variety of settings that allow me to tinker with people's Engagement of doing work together and doing it better and becoming better themselves while doing it. So today, the last 18 years, I'm directing a firm called novel in that I started with a couple of friends 18 years ago. And our job is to accompany very senior leaders on very daunting challenges and journeys of transformation so that they don't hurt themselves. But also that they're able to reach aspirations and bring people to places and accomplishments that they never would have imagined reaching. And when I'm not doing that, I'm usually curious enough to be either writing or researching or, you know, trying to scratch some itch about a question. I not able to answer
[00:02:46] spk_2: incredibly important work run. And I appreciate that you mentioned this transformative journey for leaders being done better if you will with a group or with that support, why do you think that that element for leaders in particular might be sort of additionally imp
[00:03:02] spk_1: well, I think as humans, we're all notoriously bad observers of our own reality that's heightened for leaders because they're so visible. They live their lives on a Jumbotron, they have a megaphone strapped to their mouth 24 7. Everything they say and do is amplified and misinterpreted. And so their own ability to self assess is hampered by the angst of being concocted in to multiple versions of themselves being misquoted, being misjudged, being misunderstood. So you have to have extra eyes, you have to have a kitchen cabinet of people that closely align around you to help you see what you're not able to see yourself.
[00:03:40] spk_0: Yeah, I think that's a really important point that almost to sort of pick up on those blind spots because self awareness is an incredibly important component, I think of leadership today, but also being able have really candid conversations with people around you. And it's not a solo journey, leadership. It's definitely one that it really does require some humility and interconnectedness
[00:03:59] spk_1: and it can be a very lonely journey. And if you don't do things to augment that loneliness, your isolation will bring you to places that are dark and unhealthy. And you know, I think, I mean, as human beings were designed intentionally not to be able to see our own face, we need others eyes to see us. You know, mirrors are fine, but it's still you looking back. But when our beings are reflected off of the faces of others, we learn a lot. If we pay attention and read the cues, we learn a lot about how others are experiencing us and can adapt accordingly, can read the room better can take the cues from others. You know, those we lead are not gonna always freely come and tell us that we have Spanish in our teeth, but we always do. And you know, as leaders, you have to accept the fact that every night at the dinner table of somebody, you lead a story about you being told and you have to want to get in on that conversation at least be relatively confident. You know what stories they're telling
[00:04:50] spk_2: couldn't agree with you more than one. And this concept of external self awareness is really the other half of the puzzle of knowing ourselves. And I appreciate that you mentioned this idea of that perception because often our intent isn't how it lands for folks and isn't the impact we're actually wanting to have. And that's very much the gap we think we're showing up in a certain way. But without that mirror held up to us through the eyes of others were not able to really gauge their perception accurately. So we very much appreciate you mentioning
[00:05:18] spk_1: that I think so many leaders want extra credit for their good intentions and that intent impact gap by definition has to be something. I mean, we all want to have a 1-1 say do ratio and hopefully often we are having that, but every now and then we're going to have saved the gaps and you have to just assume that somebody is watching and calculating and interpreting maybe in ways you don't want them to interpret. And if you don't have a chance to apologize or make amends, you're gonna accumulate a lot of relational debt. And, you know, it's funny whenever I ask leaders, you know, in my most recent research and honestly, I ask this question, what do your people trust you? And there's always this incredulous response of, well, sure, why wouldn't they? And my response is often that's interesting, but why should they? And I'm often given a list sort of an inventory of their intentions. You know, I intend to do this. I am this way, always self without any evidence. And it's hard for leaders to recognize that today in a trust, recession, earning and keeping the trust of others takes a lot more work and requires evidence of earning and keeping that trust, not just because you want and believe you deserve it.
[00:06:22] spk_2: Absolutely. And Ron, I just heard you mention something that if you wouldn't mind before we move on, I'd love for you to unpack for us. And that, as I heard you say, relational debt, can you explain to us what this concept means and why that's important for leaders?
[00:06:36] spk_1: Well, I think leadership is at its core a relationship between a leader and those she leads. And so if the foundation of your influence is not based in a mutually trusting, mutually beneficial relationship marked by a lot of equity, you're accumulating, you're gonna find it very difficult to lead in when there's a setback when it's a difficulty. And if you're making withdrawals from that equity and you don't even know you're doing that and your relationship is in the red with somebody and you think it's just fine on whatever you base that conclusion, you know, the absence of them complaining, you know, is not evidence that they're happy, but you may interpret it that way. Very simple litmus test for leaders is this, if you don't have somebody coming into your office or virtually onto your screen once or twice a week saying something to you that makes you uncomfortable, you can be very confident, your leadership sucks because they're telling somebody and that's telling you the state of your relationship. And if your conclusion is, well, there isn't anything to tell me. Not only does your leadership suck, but you're dumb because even if you're leading a team of five people, there's enough complexity where something is not going right, or something is amiss or somebody's frustrated. And if you're not the first line of defense now, maybe you don't want them coming to you with every single complaint, you want them to be able to solve their own problems on their own. But there are things you need to know about and if they're not coming to you, you have to ask a couple questions first. Why? And to, if they're not coming to me, where are they going? And what do I have to do to earn my right to hear that information.
[00:07:57] spk_0: I think there's so much danger in the assumptions that we make when we're not getting information or, you know, the level of miscommunication that can occur in these kind of situations. And we'll shift to talking about the hybrid work environment into that context shortly. But first, I'd love to hear, I'm actually a former lawyer and very curious about the context of your book. To be honest, speaking of honesty, lead with the power of truth justice and purpose in which you explain four factors that affect honesty, justice, and purpose within the company. I'm really curious what inspired you to write on this topic and we'd love you to unpack those four factors for us.
[00:08:32] spk_1: So it didn't start out to be a book. We did the research as a 15 year longitudinal study of 3200 liters. And we use a really cool set of artificial intelligence tools to help analyze data. And our 10 year study was on a very different topic. And with a very clear hypothesis this time, we said, well, if the intelligence is so intelligent, why don't we ask you what we should be asking it? And so we fed all the data without the parameters of a hypothesis, but just parameters of some definitional language and it came back with several drill sites. Well, here's some interesting factors that could be causal unloading on each other. One of which was truth telling and honesty and the factors that were on. It weren't just about saying the right thing, but also about doing the right thing and acting in a certain way. And so we said, oh, interesting, let's go drill there because wouldn't it be interesting if we could predict the conditions under which people would tell the truth and behave fairly and serve the greater good and the conditions under which they somehow choose to lie, cheat and serve their own interests first? And why is it that, you know, in places like, and we're all tired of the stories. We're all tired of Volkswagen, Theranos Wells, Fargo picket. But those people didn't start out to be corrupted. So what conditions caused them to go to the dark side all of a sudden? And if we could prove it, could we prevent it? So, that's what made us do the research and we published the research and the factors we found. But then everybody would come to me and say, could you do the whole college admissions scandal through the lens of your four findings or could you examine the Volkswagen? And I'm like, really sure I could do that and sure I can show you how those four factors were flagrantly present in those situations and who cares? It was just so uninspiring. But what left me in a deficit, Sally was, I couldn't have stumbled on four provable factors that nobody's doing. I mean, somebody must be doing this. And so I set out on a hunt to go find out who are the exemplars, who are the people I'd be proud to emulate or I want is my boss. Where are the companies that are being touted for all this stuff? And that's when the treasure trove, you know, opened wide and the world is teeming with leaders and organizations who are embodying these stories. And that's when the book became doable. That's when I said I could write that book, I can write a book of Heroes. We don't need another book of villains and that became the privilege of sitting in front of so many inspiring people and curating their stories from all walks of life, not just business. So that made me say that's worth the work to write the book.
[00:10:51] spk_0: And I love that, that really resonates I think for us that human leaders as well and in my own research to burn out and there's a lot of examples of companies that are doing, making major mistakes, leaders that are not doing the right thing. And I think as humans, we all want an inspiring story, we want to a path to follow. And often the media will double down on the negativity and the examples of where it has gone wrong in the kind of the drama, the doomsday, that fearmongering. So I love that you honed in on, let's look to the future. Let's look to the possibilities rather than just learning from these mistakes.
[00:11:23] spk_1: And I think that's what we're all star for. We all want to know that someone else has left the path that there's somebody we can believe in that there's somebody worthy of my trust because I can't find it anywhere. I'm looking around and I'm withdrawing my trust from governments, from education, from private sector, from organizations, from churches, places where my trust was second nature, my political leaders. Goodness. So I wanted to tell people know there are places worthy of your trust. There are people worthy of your trust. You have to learn how to find them and you have to learn how to recognize them when you see them because they might look different, they probably look different than you. And that is already causing your eyes to scan right past them. But if you look and learn to look and recognize them. They will inspire you.
[00:12:02] spk_0: Amazing. And so is it the case that these leaders, these organizations do have these four factors that you've identified in common? And can you maybe just walk us through really briefly? Just each of those four factors, what it looks like?
[00:12:12] spk_1: Sure, none of them would tell you that they do all four of these perfectly and some of them will tell you how the hell they fall far short. So my goal wasn't to find that because what was interesting about the statistical models was that they're not perfect, their cumulative all four add up. But, you know, you can improve one of them by 20 or 30% even and get a 15%. I've taken honesty. And so it's not an all or nothing proposition honesty. What the research told us was that honestly, first of all, it's not a character trait. It's not a moral principle. It's actually a muscle in our brains. It's actually a capability that you actually have to work at to be good at. It's also if you look at the linguistic ways the language loaded from the analysis, it's not just about verbal skills. It's not just about saying the truth, honesty is also defined by our behaviors by doing the right thing justice. And it's also but defined by our motives, saying and doing the right thing for the right reason. So truth justice and purpose, the four factors through which those things spread it through were, one was a clear and consistent identity be who you say you are. You know that say do gap close it. You know, whether it's the values or the mission statement of the purpose statement on your wall or the values you proclaim, make sure people's lived experience of you, You and your organization match those words because when they don't, you are three times more likely to have people be dishonest. But when they do, you're three times more likely to have people be honest. Our accountability systems need to be air marked by justice and fairness and dignity are contributions today are evidence of who we are. We're no longer remitting 20 cases closed or a claims filed. Our limits today are our analysis, our creativity, our ideas are thinking they're deep and personal reflections of who we are. And if the way in which I hold you to account for those contributions, the way in which I talk about those is not honoring and dignifying to you, but just making it like a cog in the wheel and making you not clear that you can show up and be successful here no matter who you are and what you look like. Now, the system is rigged and if that's the case, you are four times more likely to have people be dishonest. But if you do that, well, you're four times more likely to have people be honest, third was transparency and how you construct. So if I walk into a room in an organization often referred to as a meeting and there's people sitting around a table and there's somebody in the front of the room, you know, presenting something. And what I believe happening in the room is that there's an honest exchange of ideas, a free flowing debate about the merits or the challenges of whatever is being presented, the person in the front of the room does not have an agenda, but they're looking for a genuine input. And I believe that if I were to offer a point of view, different than the one prevailing in the room, I'd be free to do that. That's real transparency. That's when you're three now, 3.5 times more likely to have maybe be dishonest because I don't have to go out of the room to find the truth. But if I walk into that room and it's nothing more than orchestrated theater and it's performance art and the person in the front of the room clearly wants me to conclude something that they concluded. All the heads are nodding in the room in the same direction at the same time for the same topics. And I'm pretty clear that if I were to offer a point of view that different from what was happening in the room, I wouldn't be welcome to do that. Now, you're 3.5 times more likely to have a baby to lie because I have to go out of the room to find the truth. And the last one, probably the most surprising one was border wars, cross functional, cross boundary relationships. People with who I defer sales and marketing, supply chain and operations, you know, one tribe and another tribe, republicans and Democrats picket hr and everybody, when I believe that at those seams, the tensions can be held well, our differences can make our relationship better that there's no we in they, we all feel part, we both feel part of it. We have a bigger story when that's the case and those seams are cohesive. You are six times more likely to have people tell the truth because we're now part of a single source of truth together. But if those relationships the most seems are damaged, if those tensions cannot be held in a healthy way, if it's we and I now have fragmented the organization. And when I fragmented the relationship and when I do that, I fragment the truth. And now I'm no longer interested in a single source of truth. I'm interested in my truth versus your truth, which of course I'm convinced is wrong and mine is right. And now that is my goal to proof we live in a world today where we have taught people that, you know, speaking your truth is the same as speaking the truth. And when, so that's the case, you're six times, we're looking to have people be dishonest, then tell the truth and their cumulative. So if you can do all four of those things, well, you are 16 times more likely to have people around you that will be honest with you and tell you the truth. But if you suck it all four of those things, you are 16 times relative that put yourself into a headline story you never wanted to be in.
[00:16:36] spk_2: I think there's so much to dig in there for leaders and for organizations to really self reflect on and understand, you know, perhaps where they need to improve. Something that I found very fascinating around what you said their run is that the underlying thing is obviously this, I'm sorry for reductive lee distilling what you've just said. But this concept of safety and if that safety is not present for folks, they will revert to a performative like behavior. So they're being who you need them to be versus who they are and actually showing up authentically and you know, in my own journey, this clear identity piece for me really rung true because I worked in environments where for such a long period of time, I was expected to be something that wasn't myself. So after a while for me, performative, actually felt like my real truth and I actually did not know beneath that who I needed to be. And I actually felt like I stopped having my own ideas and my own creativity and my own insights because it was for naught. So I would just come do what I was told. Leave very cynical, took my paycheck when elsewhere, you know, spoke trash about everyone I worked with and I was very toxic and very in a bad way. And I think that for so many people who perhaps have my experience after a while finding your own authenticity again, is almost a journey that you need to remove yourself from this setting. And thanks
[00:17:56] spk_1: for sharing that. And I'm so sorry, that was your experience because clearly you're an incredibly gifted and talented woman whose ideas the world needs and imagine had all those years not been spent being, you know, a fake version of yourself of being and then multiply that by the millions of people roaming our workplaces today doing the same thing, it's horrible. And yet the longer you sit in that environment, the longer that extraction journey of detox takes. And yet, look, I'm not sure how it is and where you are. But in the United States, 80 million people quit their jobs in the last nine months. There's clear data that people are saying that they're having the experience that you're described Alexis and they're tired of it. People show up to work every day, every single one of us with two questions they want to answer. Do I matter? And do I belong? And leaders have to make sure that nobody ever doubts. The answer to those questions is yes. And then I can devote all my capacity into enjoying and thriving doing my work. But if people wonder if the answer is yes, they go about doing the counterfeit thing, which is what you described looking like I matter. And how do I look like I matter and how do I look like I belong? And we all know what it's like when people elbow their way into belong and perform their way to mattering and it's cool. But at some point, those mechanisms get out that they're no longer satisfying. We wake up one day and realize what the hell and, but our innate human nature, it's built into us hardware to matter and belong doesn't go away. And so I'll go seek it somewhere else. Hopefully finding a place where I can be confident. The answer is that all of me matters and all of me belongs and leaders who don't understand that are facing the fact that their best talent is quitting and leaving and they're mediocre talent is quitting and staying.
[00:19:28] spk_2: Yeah. And that quitting and staying piece as well is fascinating because for me, all of my energy was tied up in anxiety in trying to be who I thought I needed to be versus just doing my job. Well. And so it's an energy leak
[00:19:42] spk_1: and that's why the answer to those questions has to be asked because if I have to devote any ounce of capacity into the stress of wondering about the answers. That's capacity that's not going to the work. And leaders have to understand you get to spend each person once and if you're spending them on their own distress and their own anxiety because you didn't do the work to create an environment where they thrived, then you don't to have the benefits of their talents and their limits. And if you don't understand that as a leader, that's your job, your job is to simply create an environment where people never doubt that they belong or they matter, do your job.
[00:20:11] spk_2: And it seems quite simplistic yet we get it so wrong and
[00:20:15] spk_1: it's very hard for
[00:20:16] spk_2: sure. And I'd love to know Ron. You know, we're really seeing a huge rise in the hybrid work environments in the last few years, in particular. What are the b biggest challenges that you see leaders facing within this environment? And how do they go about creating a healthy hybrid workplace where they can meet these challenges that you speak of?
[00:20:32] spk_1: I think the first thing they have to realize is that intimacy is not a function of physical presence, your team bonds that you create the connections that you create without Julie is not predicated on physically being in their presence. Is it different when you're across the screen? Of course, it is. Do you have to do different things to establish that trust? Yes, you do but it can be done. So assume that weaker ties get formed across the screen means you've given up. And so now you've created anxiety that you created a classic system of those that come in, the office will be carried more favor and given more attention and get more opportunities. Fueling the worst nightmares of those who stayed home or those who can't make it to the office all the time. So you've got to level the playing field, you've got to make sure that there's inclusion now means people on the screen or people at the desk and the playing field is truly level. You also have to recognize that the last two years have changed people. One of the things we've been doing with a number of our clients is what we call a Rien boarding as you come back to whatever your next new normal is, you know, doing a re introduction. And first of all, especially for people who were hired during the pandemic who never actually met before and making people answer questions like here's who I became during the pandemic. You know, the most significant thing that's different about me now is the thing I'm most concerned about returning to work in our hybrid world is I'm most excited about this team's ability to, I need your help to be successful in this way. Here's the contribution I thought I could make to you actually having people answer and discuss those questions and get to know each other differently. So that you realize that, wow, we're all different than we were two years ago. But if I now understand how you're different and I trust that you understand how I'm different now, I can levy respect and regard in different ways
[00:22:06] spk_0: that you mentioned that the re onboarding concepts on because I think there's a real opportunity for people to connect in a different way and to kind of, I think the remote work environment by definition, we started to see different aspects of our colleagues in the background at home, the dog barking kids. And that bit more transparency about the fact that we're not separate individuals at work and at home, and I think being able to have those kind of conversations really strengthens the connective tissue of those relationships that we have at work. And I think particularly we're thinking of, you know, the people who are new in the work environment. I think for those of us who've maybe been in a situation for multiple years and then we've been remote working. We've already had that sense of connection and understanding of what the workplace is like. And perhaps that journey has been little less stilted than for someone who has entered the organization very recently. Certainly is a fresh graduate out of college, for example. So really taking the opportunity to connect with the team and connected to who we are now and having that conversation, I imagine also being an ongoing one.
[00:23:02] spk_1: It's every day, you have to earn it every day and learning how to create virtual office hours, keeping your screen on letting people pop in when they need to, using the technologies that are available to us to create, you know, artifacts of meetings that people couldn't make. So that there are articles, you know, accepting that asynchronous and synchronous interactions can both be productive and both be meaningful and you know, constant synchronous interactions can be dreaming. And I mean, I think if anything the last couple years exposed just how awful our meetings really are. We've always known there awful. But now we realize, wow, they're useless because we've stopped having them and were more productive.
[00:23:37] spk_0: Exactly that. And I think there's statistics about the increase in meetings that occurred through the last couple of years and then the incredible just exhaustion that everyone faced for a variety of reasons, obviously being behind the screen is one of them. But I think there's been a real like you alluded to this exposure of meetings as a fallacy in a lot of ways of productivity. We have this idea that we had a meeting and we can take a box. But if we look at the number of hours, if we could distill that into a sort of a percentage of meetings that were genuinely contributing to a creative and innovative work environment that we're nourishing people there helping them to feel like they matter, that their time and energy matters. I think we have some interesting statistics to look at. I'd love to ask sort of circling back to something you mentioned earlier on. I have a little bit of a spiritual side to me and when you mentioned the word unity and, and you know, making sure that everyone's on the same page that we've all got the same alignment we're seeking the same truth. And to me that almost feels like there's a little bit of almost a Buddhist context to that in a sense of we're all one. So let's not get splintered into fighting about our own separate truths in our own separate interests. I'm curious what risks leaders run when they don't focus on creating unity and particularly in a hybrid work team. And what can they maybe do, what sort of steps might they be able to take to start to foster that unity within their teams today?
[00:24:53] spk_1: I think we already know it's been measured that there's a lot of ties that got weakened, especially cross functional ties, right? We spent most of the pandemic talking to only our own teams. And so if you're a leader that is responsible for a lot of Remittance that bring together the capabilities of a lot of different teams and those relationships are now weaker. So the results, so the weaker the ties across the fabric of the organization, the week of the outputs. And so it's critical that if your work and today whose work isn't cross function, collaborative, very little value in addition, gets created by one team alone. There's almost always some other set of people you have to coordinate with or you know, interact with and engage with in some way to join forces and collaborate on your results. If you're not setting the example for your team, if you're not encouraging strong healthy trust based relationships, you're just simply telling them that the value they create is irrelevant or it's not important. I think there are lots of ways that leaders can and whether it's virtual lunches or just sharing a meal together, celebrations of people's personal birthdays and simple things, writing personal notes to people. I've seen do wonderful things with that making sure people are learning, learning is one of the greatest trust leveling experiences you can do. And so bringing teams together for shared learning experiences, put them in cohorts and have them learn together on a journey of making something technical and leadership, making whatever it is. But when people are vulnerable to, I'm in a place, I'm getting information that I don't know. I'm learning a skill that I don't have. You level the playing field and you create a different kind of trust and intimacy among people. And now they have a shared experience and a shared achievement of mastering new information that they actually want to apply to each other.
[00:26:31] spk_2: I think this is so such a potent insight wrong because I think what we also see often with the sort of shift to more hybrid work and I guess the sort of ecosystem as a workforce kind of dynamic is that we also do see sometimes the casualization of jobs. And certainly I've witnessed this a little bit where there are sort of certain people in remote teams or segments of teams where they're kind of just brought in on a need basis, do the work, log out, go away kind of thing. And that disconnect, it's become a very, you know, functional sort of role. This is your function, you come in, you do the work in your own time at home, whatever that looks like and then you sort of leave again because we're not in person. There's not that obligation to do the team bonding sort of part of it. And what I feel is that the narrative there is that it's sort of reinforcing this pervasive narrative around business being about profit versus people, all that we have to have sort of one or the other. And this sort of team ecosystem opportunity allows us to kind of simplify and streamline operations a little bit and really dial in on just doing things in the most productive way. And I just love to know your view on that. Do you really believe that leaders can have both happy people in great results that dr still a profit in cos
[00:27:43] spk_1: I don't know that it's possible to have one without the, I mean, the 15 years of research we did for to be honest, all clearly say that the companies where people are thriving, where there is an ethic of care where there is an ethic of justice. Those companies on any metric, you would care about profitability, brand loyalty, market share, earnings per share of eur publicly traded company, employee loyalty, employee engagement and retention, consumer loyalty, far outperform their competitors, not even by small margins by significant margins, they far out perform. So what that's suggesting is that if you want to have a workforce where you have long term sustained performance, anybody can wring out blood from a stone for a couple of quarters. But at some point that's going to come back to bite you badly and today it's happening faster. So if you want long term sustained performance, competitive distinction from those whose customers might choose over you, the only path to that is a workforce that is thriving, joyful, committed, learn connected modeled by your leadership as vulnerable, curious, empathic accountability. I mean, we have a lot of confusion over accountability and care as though they're opposing forces. Once again, you can't have one without the other accountability that is not caring is not accountability at all. It's abuse care that has no accountability in it is ruinous empathy, it's caretaking, it's not accountable. People want to do better. People want to improve and you have the information to help them do that and you're obligated to share it. That's care and accountability.
[00:29:11] spk_2: I'm so grateful to hear you say that wrong because we have so many very polarizing examples in mainstream media right now, which we won't mention here. And I think if we know who they are, I think that what a lot of the dialogue that I've seen around these particular examples is that it's felt as though certain individuals or certain companies that perhaps have market share in some way or another are an anomaly or are perhaps immune to this idea that treating people the right way will actually keep company profits expanding. And what we're really seeing there is mass exodus of employees. We're seeing absolute scandals in the media. And what's fascinated me is some of the again dialogue that I see on different platforms where folks who endorse this sort of behavior really doubling down on its effectiveness. And it's just very interesting to, I guess, corroborate the idea that this is not the way to lead with some of your research that's been conducted over a multitude of years on a multitude of different leaders and companies. So I just wanted to take the time to say thank you for doing that and that we appreciate that because I get so frustrated seeing this dialogue lexi it's working, they're bringing costs down and they're getting rid of employees quickly. And it's so frustrating to see this pervasive narrative still play out.
[00:30:27] spk_1: It's just reverse engineering. The narrative, reverse engineer make the story say what I wanted to say as if there was no other path, right? If you're having to throw out 20% of your workforce, that means you just grew it responsibly and people see right through it. And yes, you, at least if you have to riff, you have to at least rift compassionately and generously, but you have to ask yourself it isn't just that you missed the forecast for what inflation or geopolitical disruptions we're going to do. You missed it wildly. But you know, and if we go to the harsh tech examples that we're talking in code about here, you know, you just start interview just yesterday. Reed Hastings from Netflix, Lauding. Oh, he's brilliant. It's great. I'm like, well after the mess you've been in Netflix. I don't know if you're the one to be saying that. But technically, what's true is this story is far from over. So we don't really know how it will come out. But if the story goes tremendously in its end, you cannot say the means justify the ends. You can't say, well, the path there must have been correct because there were plenty of other pathways available to
[00:31:25] spk_0: curious runs in this sort of almost more high level analysis of what's going on in the world. I feel like there is a paradigm is kind of changing. Something is shifting where you know, maybe a couple of decades ago, humans were resources and we talked about human capital and almost like this kind of idea of there is almost justification in the exploitative way that some companies treated their people. And it sort of feels like on some level, we're just not putting up with that anymore. And there is something that is
[00:31:53] spk_1: A big backlash. Yeah. And I think you're right. It's like a 30 year backlash.
[00:31:58] spk_0: Yeah. And I mean, this just I find this really exciting because I think this is a time then when leaders who do have the vision to treat people as human beings and to, you know, show them the cycle, you know, help them meet the psychological needs that they have to matter, to feel belonging, to feel seen and heard by the people around them. And I think what you mentioned also remind me of the fact that these are relationships and as you said, you know, you wouldn't, well, maybe some people would but the way that people just dropped from a company, the callous treatment, it's just not going to stand anymore.
[00:32:26] spk_1: Well, and I think, you know, so I'm researching geopolitical disruptions of supply chains, you know, blah, blah, blah, sure, those put tremendous pressure on your bottom line. But you're now saying okay, when I have to choose between my shareholders, all of the stakeholders I serve and my employees, my employees are gonna lose, don't pay your dividends for two quarters, buy shares back, you know, preserve jobs because at some point you're gonna hire them again and you know, people are gonna think twice, you're exporting alumni into the world who are going to tell stories about what it's like there. And even the people, I've seen lots of posts on linkedin, people being exited from some of the tech companies saying wonderful things about their experiences there and how sad they are to have to leave and people making great referrals and this is great talent, you need them, you should take them all nice. But at the end of the day, if you're come, company was so vulnerable to such an economic or in this case, many ways, it's just the prediction of an economic, I mean, you know, there's lots of indicators that while there's some recessive genes happening economically, there are other places where the economy is doing just fine. And so this whole hunkering down under the fear of what might happen in the first quarter of 2023 you know, it's short sighted and the companies who are keeping a long term view saying we're going to write it out, we're gonna be fine, you know, and maybe they're doing responsible things like they're hiring freezes or cutting more discretionary spending or doing other ways if they have to sort of, you know, stock piles of resources or, you know, fill the coffers for the rainy day without doing it with the payrolls of, I had to do it at the holiday time. I mean, it just compounds the irresponsibility those companies and I don't have any compassion for them and for the people, the teary apologies from the C E O s. Please just go away.
[00:34:09] spk_0: That just feels so selfish to me like this is not your making it about you.
[00:34:14] spk_1: And
[00:34:14] spk_0: yeah, I'm imagining
[00:34:17] spk_1: and severance is, they're not that generous severance. I mean, you could have done six months easily for people and at least given them some cushion to find more time.
[00:34:25] spk_0: Absolutely. I imagine we've got a lot of leaders who are listening right now who do really want to lead in a, you know, in a humane way, they want to ensure that their team or their organization is one that is a future minded company and that does look after people and ensure that they feel that they matter, that they feel belonging. They want to transform their culture for the better right now. And they can see that they've got some work to do. Maybe on the unity component, maybe on fostering honesty. Is there a sort of a starting point that you can recommend Ron? What's something that a leader can do starting today, starting tomorrow in their team to start that cultural shift?
[00:34:59] spk_1: Well, the first thing I would do is start with you and this is what I have leaders do. Open your calendar for the last 10 days and just go back and sort of replay the game film of the last 10 days and pick out 6 to 8 moments where, you know, you were less than your best self. You behaved in a way, you know, you would not say you value you embellished information to your boss. And one of the slides you presented, you have held hard feedback from a direct report. You flip the bird to somebody at the traffic light because they cut you off. You were curt with the barista at Starbucks. You were not nice to your kids or your spouse and just to inventory them, nobody has to see this. But what I guarantee you is if you look back over that pattern, that set of moments, you will see a pattern. You will see a recurring theme of why you chose those behaviors and the conditions that brought you to them in the first place. And if you dig deeper, what you'll see is a narrative of telling you that, that those behaviors serve a purpose. They engineer a certain response in others. They make you perceive a certain way, they make you feel safer, they make you feel more confident or more important. They don't really actually work, but you've told yourself they do. And we cannot be more honest until we are more honest about our dishonesty and are more honest about the things that bring us to our dishonesty in the first place. That's how you rescript the narrative. That's how you get better honesty and you don't have a right to ask it of your team, then do that work and then go into your office and pull the mission statement or the values of the purpose statement off the wall and put it on the table and say, hey, how are we doing? If people watch us all day long, are these, the words are going to use to describe us? If somebody followed our whole team around for a day in our life with a video camera, could that video be used to train people in these values or could it be used to train them in how not to do these values? Ask the hard questions,
[00:36:41] spk_2: Ron, I feel like there's an entire other conversation there that we could sit down and record another podcast interview with so much wisdom in that and it's so aligned with our values and what we believe to be true with human leaders as well. And that is if you want to create change in the world, you have to be the change before you can expect that to ripple out. So, thank you so much Ron for being with us today on. We are human leaders. It has been an absolute pleasure to have this conversation with you. Thanks
[00:37:08] spk_1: so much for having me. Appreciate.
[00:37:13] spk_0: Thanks for joining us for this conversation with Ron Carucci. If you'd like to learn more about Ron's work, check out all the details in the show notes and if you'd like to become a part of the human leaders movement, join us at www.wearehumanleaders.com.
See you next time.