Navigating a Corporate Career as a Human Leader with Nina Pollard
Nina Pollard - Australian based Head of People and Culture
Nina has been working in HR and leading teams of HR practitioners for over 15 years. A graduate from The University of Melbourne in undergraduate and postgraduate studies, Nina has continued her professional development through studies and taking on new and challenging work experiences. Having worked across industries including Telcommunications, oil and gas, banking and finance and currently Retail, Nina has enjoyed the diversity an HR career can bring. Outside of work, Nina is a busy mum, dog lover and does volunteering work in her local community. Nina recently joined her local surf lifesaving club Board and has previously serviced on the Her Place Women’s Museum board; celebrating and promoting the achievements and contributions of Australian women.
Today, we’re talking to someone who truly embodies human leadership, translating the theory of human leadership into everyday lived practice. With huge impact.
Nina Pollard is an Australian-based senior people professional who has been leading teams of HR practitioners for over 15 years.
Nina has worked across industries including Telecommunications, oil and gas, banking and finance and currently in a major Retailer. Along the way her unique approach to leadership has impacted numerous teams and thousands of people. We’re sure her journey, expertise and experience will inspire you, too.
To learn more about Nina here:
Connect with Nina Pollard on LinkedIn here.
For accessible access, view the podcast with closed captions below and access the full conversation transcript.
Episode Transcript:
Spk0 Sally Clarke Spk1 Alexis Zahner Spk2 Nina Pollard
[00:00:09] spk_0: Welcome to, we are human leaders. I'm Sally Clarke and today Alexis, Zahner and I are speaking to someone who truly embodies human leadership, translating the theory of what it means to be a human leader into everyday lived practice with huge impact. Nina Pollard is an Australian based senior people professional who has been leading teams of hr practitioners for over 15 years, Nina has worked across industries including telecommunications, oil and gas, banking and finance is currently working with a major retailer in Australia. Along the way. Her unique approach to leadership has impacted numerous teams and thousands of people. We saw her journey as a human leader and her expertise and experience will inspire you too. Let's delve in.
[00:01:00] spk_1: Welcome to we are human leaders, Nina. It's an absolute pleasure to have you with us here today. And before we dive into your work and the wonderful things that you're doing in your career, we'd love to start by getting to know you a little bit more and perhaps diving into your story a little bit and the journey that's brought you to the work that you're doing now. Sure,
[00:01:24] spk_2: great. Well, thanks so much for having me on the podcast today. Um So my story, I guess you could say a fairly tradition, one in some ways and a fairly different one in others. So I'm an hr practitioner now through and through, I've been working in corporate Australia for over 20 years now, which makes me feel really old, but it is what it is. I thought I was going to end up in the public service. So at university, I did political science and public policy and was lucky enough to do an internship in State Parliament here in Victoria. And I love doing that work. But it's funny how your career kind of evolves and sometimes it's planned and sometimes you just land in different opportunities. And I was one of those people that kind of ended up falling into hr a little bit when I was working in the States on AJ one student visa post, my undergraduate degree. And I started in sort of a sales and marketing area. You can imagine. They thought, oh, great, an Australian who's enthusiastic and can sell lots of, you know, things to our customers. Great. But I worked out and they worked out that actually, I was interested in the human resources aspect of the business. How do we make sure we've got the right team members for peak season? How do we, you know, manage our policies and benefits? I was drawn to that work and actually it was that work that ended up prompting me to come back to Australia to do post grad studies in hr and employee relations. And I got a graduate position at Telstra, which was amazing for two years. As a graduate, I realized I didn't have business language, I didn't understand some of the concepts around business and corporate life. So I did a masters in commerce to learn the language of business. And from there, my hr career was kind of unfolded. So I've really enjoyed working across a number of different industries. So Telco is a great, obviously I moved to Brisbane and worked in the oil and gas industry for a number of years. And that was really different. A hard hat overalls and still take out boots every day was not where I thought I'd see myself, but wow, a great experience and then a complete change into banking and finance, which as an hr practitioner during the Royal commission was a very interesting time. And now I'm working in retail and I think it's really interesting to see hr practices and hr is a profession through the eyes of different industries. There's so many similarities in the hr profession, but actually there's lots of important differences too. So I really enjoy working in the hr and people's space. And uh yeah, I'm very fortunate to have worked across a lot of different industries. Yeah,
[00:03:43] spk_1: it's fascinating, Nina and I noticed you mentioned you started with the sales and marketing background as well, and that really resonates with me because actually that's where my career started. And interestingly, you know, also being quite an extroverted outgoing person naturally fell into that first. And it took me, you know, in my entire career, sort of working backwards to realize actually it was the people element, like it was understanding human beings and the psychology of human beings even that early in my career. That was fascinating me. That was just how I was applying that knowledge at the time. And I wonder, did you have any of those sort of little inklings early on around what was drawing you to the people side of things or was it personality things or what was it about you that you think drew you that way?
[00:04:24] spk_2: That's a great question. I absolutely do. And I realized and worked out pretty quickly that we spend more of our life at work than we do doing just about anything else. We're at work more than we're sleeping, more than we're eating more than we're spending time with our family and friends. And I was really driven by this idea that because we spend more of our life at work than doing anything else. The happier we are at work, the better it is all round, the better outcomes we get for individuals, for teams, for leaders, for shareholders, as customers, for stakeholders, everybody wins when people are happy at work. And this was kind of as a really young person. I kind of realized that I was better at work when I was happy and everything just worked. And so that kind of was the underpinning for me when I was, you know, started off working just that. Oh, I spent so much time doing this and I'm gonna be doing this for so long. And so that was, I know it sounds pretty easy, but I sort of describe it like that, but genuinely that was my thought process as a young person that aha moment around the investment and the time we allocate in our lives to working. And that's what sort of drove me to pick up, you know, more work in hr and take it on as a profession. And I love
[00:05:32] spk_0: that it feels like a very organic sort of journey in a lot of ways that it has been needed, sort of being drawn to this work and then evolving in it through your additional studies and working in different industries. And there's also something that I always feel like there's a little bit countercultural about being able to have that thought and that insight at such an early stage in your career because you're absolutely right. We spend so much of our lives at work and there is this kind of prevailing narrative about work being hard and difficult and it is something where we expend a lot of energy, being able to shift it to something where we're actually happy at work. There's something a little bit, you know, I get excited at the thought and I think that is something we don't tend to see in a lot of, you know, traditional workplaces. Certainly as a former finance lawyer, you know, it's very much about serious, hard work. So I'm curious to hear a little bit more about your own leadership style and how you bring this sense of bringing happiness to the workplace to how you lead.
[00:06:24] spk_2: Yeah, sure. I really do love working in on and around leadership as a topic. You know, after 20 years, it's one of those topics as an hr practitioner, you go deep on at times in your career and then you think about it for yourself, for others, for the organization, they have different contexts around leadership and the way I view it is, I'm still developing my leadership style and I think it's one of those things we always continue to evolve, the happiness aspect. It comes really from a deep interest in connecting people and ideas together, connecting people around. What meaning does their work have? How can they get things done around organization and being a sort of a caring leader often means actually listening and understanding the needs of the individual that you're working with the needs of the organization and bringing those sometimes different interests together. I think my leadership style has evolved to being one and it can sometimes sound a little bit poly up and it doesn't require a balance, but it's a focus on positivity to the point we were talking about before, around the happiness thing. You have to tread quite a fine line with that because work can be tough at times. But if you're connected to the work that you're doing, you understand the value that you bring to the organization, there's a fulfillment in that I believe that can make even the tough times quite positive. You can frame them in a positive way. And it's that belief in the ability of humans that we can achieve at an awful a lot when we're quite positive and you build and maintain positive momentum. It means when there are tough times and obstacles, you can contextualize them. You can understand that they're at a moment in time at many times in my career, I've seen people navigate different challenges in different ways and it's just almost this, I've observed people get into a bit of a death spiral. I call it of negativity around issues that perhaps if they have been reframed earlier in a moment in time, a challenge to be overcome. This is what's really going on. How do we hold it lightly? Although it might be impactful and meaningful to the individual, you can sometimes navigate challenges in corporate life in a different way. I think it is hard to be positive all the time and it's not about being naive, it's not about being uh brushing difficulties under the carpet. It's about caring about what's going on, caring how an individual's feeling, what the business needs, what all the issues are and connecting the ideas. Because often very few things are very personal in business or in corporate life, really, really a lot of it's not very personal, it's a macro thing we're trying to achieve. And so sometimes I feel if we lift up a little bit, hold it a little bit lighter and contextualize challenges they can be overcome in a really positive way. I know that sounds like a really sort of uh fluffy and sort of way to describe it. But I think that's my leadership style is helping individuals and organizations hold the context in the right way. Mm
[00:09:15] spk_1: I think there's so much in that and Sally and I, for those who can't see us on video, we're shaking our heads and I mean, there's so many things for us that we could sort of unpack there. Nina, one thing that I just want to pause on and mention because what I felt like I was hearing you say is it's really about the meaningfulness that we create for people at work. And when you mentioned this idea of a positive momentum forward and understanding that what they're doing matters. And then you mentioned this idea that when things get challenging, we almost have that sort of bank of goodwill if you will or whatever you wanna call that, that we can rely on to grit when we need to grit as a team. And I think it's a really important concept for us to take a moment to reflect on because I think that meaningfulness is really what we crave as a human being at the most innate level and when we can get that through our work. And as you said, the place where we spend the bulk of our life, it can really actually change our entire outlook on the rest of our life as well. It changes our relationships at home, changes the way we view the world, it changes the way we view our lives. So it's actually something that's so important yet. So many organizations overlook their ability to actually impact people's lives in that
[00:10:24] spk_2: way. I think that's right. I think as a leader to be able to do that though, you need to work on your, I wanna say resilience, but that's almost not quite the right word. It's your foundational things that help you be the best leader you can possibly be. I was had the opportunity at BP to go on an amazing program once that sort of UN was kind of like unleashing our leadership potential for emerging talent kind of a program. And BP had amazing talent development opportunities. And one of these programs focused on three things, three things, only sleep, nutrition and exercise. And I know to most people, they're the core things that everyone looks out for, I did this relatively early in my career and I had another one of those, I had no idea how important these things were to be at work. And actually, for me to be a great leader, I have to, every day have my daily ritual, my daily habits, morning and night. I have non-negotiable things. I do every single day and they're really good hygiene things around those three topics. And I am a completely different person when I don't adhere to those things. And actually it's just part of who I am now. So I don't even think about it. It's just what I enjoy doing. It's what I, how I eat and sleep and all those things. My friends make fun of me because they know they can't really go out after 9 30 because I'm really awful. I'm just, I'm not into it. I don't enjoy it. It's not fun. I'm morning, my body clock is going, it's time to go to sleep. You must go to sleep now and I'm a pain at 5 30 in the morning because I am out of bed like a, you know, jumping out of bed ready to go. But it's those things mean something to me and they help me be a great leader and keep this positive momentum, role model, this positive momentum. And I wish I could help other leaders understand, find the things that make you a great leader because I've got my things, they are not gonna be the same for everyone. But you gotta find those things that for you make a difference so you can help others in a way context because it's not easy every day. So you, you need your foundations to be able to do that.
[00:12:16] spk_0: Couldn't agree more, Nina. And, you know, a lot of the sort of burnout prevention work that I do is really about embedding well-being and it really does start with us as individuals. And even when we're thinking about, you know, have leaders ask, how can I prevent burnout in my team or what can I do to help others? And it's really oftentimes about starting with role modeling, how am I actually looking after myself if I'm expecting my team to look after themselves and stick to boundaries and really ensure that they're, you know, embedding these practices. Am I doing that myself? And I think it's such a great message that you're sharing there. And I did just want to come back to this concept because you mentioned it a couple of times of caring in leadership. And it's something that even just as you were speaking, I think for the first time, I actually had this kind of connective moment of realizing that, you know, caring is such a beautiful human experience. And for so long, we've kind of, I think left it outside of the workplace. We've kind of seen it as something I care about. You know, my family and friends, but it's almost wrong somehow to care about people at work and the outcomes that we drive together. But what I'm hearing is, you know, if we can actually embrace this innate human quality of caring at work, and if you have that experience in the workplace, ie where we spend most of our lives, to me, that can give rise to a much fuller experience of being a human. You know, as a leader does that resonate for you
[00:13:34] spk_2: resonates with me. And it's so interesting to hear you talk about it in a sort of a structured sense. It's that I deeply connect with the idea about how do you really authentically and practically care for your team. And I think about it on kind of two levels. There's the caring about their work and what they do, but there's a need, individual needs piece as well every day helping the team feel valued and safe and empowered. But you do that by understanding their needs. And sometimes I think it's about their day to day in the moment needs. I feel great when a team member rings me and goes, hey, Nina, I'm having a really crap day. I didn't sleep very well last night. You know, I'm just not focused. Number one, they're telling me their needs. Number two, they felt safe enough to ring me and go, hey, I'm feeling crap today because that means I can respond as a leader properly in the right way and say, Great Sally, I hear you no troubles at all. You know, take the afternoon, have a nap, do what you need, you need to do, do your admin tasks, whatever you need to do today so that you can recoup and you know, be back at it tomorrow and no problems at all. And I think when you do respond to people like that in that way, when they are vulnerable enough to share with you their needs, they feel more safe, they feel more valued, they will do even better work and be even happier at work. But it takes a leader to also be able to do that. So sometimes I'll go to my team and say, hey, this is happening with my kids or something's going on. So being OK to be like, hey, I've got these needs right now too is really important and it's a really important part of it because I hear leaders around the organizations, I work say, oh yeah, my team can come to me every time any time la la la. But I think it's important for leaders to say to be that vulnerable themselves and to show they have needs they're human too, right? They've got stuff, we've all got stuff going on in our life every day outside of work, we all do. And it's that creating that environment where people feel safe enough to express that. So a great day. For me is when two river says, hey, this is going on or that's going on. I need this or I need that because I think that's the essence of this caring, environment, caring for the individual and their individual needs. Right? Then in the moment is super important to help people, you know, with their work and really feel part of it and belong.
[00:15:44] spk_1: I'm so glad you mentioned the word belonging there as well. Nina, because this is obviously a concept that we talk a lot about human leaders. It's a concept that seems to be, you know, really prevalent in the leadership business space at the minute. But it's interesting because I think again, it's a core need that we all have. But as you've just mentioned, this needs to be modeled very much from the top down for people to feel safe to do it as well. And I think it's this modeling of behavior from leaders that really starts building that work culture from the top down. And I'd love to talk a little bit more around this idea of culture if we could, Nina and to hear from you, you know what you describe as a work culture and how you go about creating that healthy work culture in the organization that you're in.
[00:16:27] spk_2: Yeah, sure. I know there's lots of academic writings about culture and there's people far more articulate than me that would provide you a much more structured than academic answer. That I'm going to provide what I think of as a work culture is really the broken rules and norms in a workplace. It's the behaviors that we accept. Um the behaviors we see in an organization, the rituals or ways we go about doing things are sometimes it's the physical environment or the artifacts and how they manifest. But also the work culture is now expanding to the digital form. So, you know, what do we do on teams on Microsoft Zoom meetings? You know, how do we behave? Do we wave, do we not wave? You know, how does that kind of all work? You know, that's the work culture to me and cultures of course, are living and breathing and evolving all the time in organizations. And it's a shame almost that we don't have, you know, sometimes in Australian businesses, a more deep connection to the idea of culture as an organism in and of itself and breathing and creating that more mindful and in a more mindful way, sorry, the practices and norms in an organization so that it's more inclusive so that it's more fair and equitable. And actually, so it's more um you know, that would be great if organizations in, you know, Australia were a bit more attuned to taking a really thoughtful approach to creating and holding a culture. That's my point of view. Anyway,
[00:17:44] spk_0: that's such a beautiful way of describing it, Nina. And I really love what you mentioned there really about, you know, really bringing our focus and attention to what a work culture is, as an organism, as this living and breathing, you know, part of the workplace. Because I think a lot of sometimes we just assume things about the work culture. We assume that if not hearing everything, anything, then everything must be fine or we're assuming that everything will probably be OK and all of these assumptions are made. Whereas when we actually take the time to talk about it, you know, core have conversations around things. So we start to surface different insights from different people and understand that what we might be assuming might not be what's happening for others. And that we may be, we actually need to be very explicit and open about what we actually want to create as our culture, how we want our day to day experience of work to be. So, am I understanding correctly that that's something you see as being important to that kind of almost mindful focus and time invested in driving
[00:18:40] spk_2: culture. I would love to see organizations implement a role like a cultural curator, almost thinking of it in an art form, almost that we need to be more planful and organized. And I like the way you described explicit actually, it takes an enormous amount of energy and effort to explain, communicate and get hold of a culture. Otherwise what happens and you see it in lots of organizations, the culture kind of evolves and it morphs and sometimes it goes in directions that unproductive or not really the kind of culture you would want to be proud of these types of things can happen if you don't really control of it. And I would just love us to think about it more in a way that you curate a culture. And you really are thoughtful about how you bring all the bits together, how they interrelate and intersect and how they should be nurtured and looked after so that we're creating this environment, one that we can be proud of. One that's fun one that everyone wants to be in and does their best work in obviously as, as the point. And so, yeah, I completely agree. So we'll see.
[00:19:39] spk_0: And I think it's also interesting to think of, you know, you're making me sort of thinking like how often do leaders also think about the cultural impact of business decisions? So maybe even integrating as part of the business or strategic decisions we're making? What will the impact of this be for our organizational culture? And is that something, is that a shift we're willing to make? Does that align with where we want to go and who we want to be and allowing that to almost be part of the
[00:20:03] spk_2: business bottle too? Yeah. Wouldn't it be lovely if every aspect of our business and every decision in the decision making and governance forums at a cultural lens. I think that would be the ultimate and apiary of curative culture, a long way to go who were there. But yes, I agree, that would be a lovely position to be in
[00:20:20] spk_0: the future of human leadership. Exactly, Nina, I'm curious to hear from your experience, you know, we were at this time um in Australia, but I think also sort of everywhere around the world, certainly with some of the work that we've been doing with global companies as well, seeing this real pressure in terms of, you know, retaining and attracting top talent. And I'm curious to understand sort of at this moment in time, what do you think the most significant issue that is facing talent leaders in really ensuring that they're maximizing, you know, attraction and retention?
[00:20:50] spk_2: But in Australia right now, it is a really interesting time. I think we are absolutely in a historical least significant time where unemployment is so low and which means people have choices, right? People can make a career choice and not that everyone exercises that choice. But, you know, generally speaking, there are choices out there and when it comes to talent attraction for businesses, to really know what they stand for, what's special about that organization, what is their point of difference in the market often in hr land, you know, we talk a lot about an employment brand and, but many of them are rather homogenous rather than taking a more extreme view. A real point of difference, a real differentiation kind of lends to it. That is a, you know, a more sophisticated way probably to think about how to attract talent to your organization. And then generally in talent management, we probably in a Australia, it would be fair to say are more immature than other parts of the world where talent management as a discipline is a bit more sophisticated in the way it thinks about how to attract grow and develop talent in organizations. We're still in many organizations. I think getting to grips with, I would call it talent management governance. So the basics of, you know, fair and transparent talent processes having really clear and simple talent strategies that go end to end from attraction through acceleration. And you know, this topic around transparency of talent, of course, is a big one in many organizations. How do we have those bold conversations when we're making talent decisions and how do we help people understand that everyone is valued? Some might have a disproportionate amount of investment in their careers. And honestly, I really do believe when you can get a hold of some of that talent management governance really well, it is a motivator no matter how the views you, you can still be motivated and engaged in an organization. But when it's not done well, when these talent governance pieces and talent strategy pieces well understood or well articulated, it's a challenge for attracting great talent in the organization and it's absolutely a challenge in terms of retaining and developing talent and it limits ultimately the contribution and engagement you have with your workforce. So the Australian businesses today would be well advised. I think to really focus on a well articulated, simple talent strategy to help them, not just with talent attraction, but actually maximizing the contribution of the talent they've already got in their organizations. Hm,
[00:23:09] spk_1: thank you, Nina. There's so much in that. And, you know, interestingly you mentioned this idea of like the brand that you're presenting in the market as well, sort of going back to our culture piece that we just spoke about, you know, in my sort of anecdotal experience in the past, it seems that organizations that are known for having positive or exciting or what have you workplace cultures tend to struggle perhaps less with their talent pipeline. Is this something that you've seen in your experience? And how do you go about sort of presenting the workplace culture through that talent attraction phase? Yeah,
[00:23:43] spk_2: it's a super interesting one. I worked in a business, oh, I currently work in a business that you could say wasn't very sexy, pre-covid, right? It wasn't very cool and it was a very interesting dynamic through COVID when job security became a key sort of focus for many in the market. And it's really shifted the conversation around the importance of those topics and how can different organizations think about their position in the market a little bit differently to leverage. Actually, what do you have over other businesses? What is your sell? What is your proposition? Are you a resilient stock during tough times? Or are you a really cool fun culture? That's exciting and desirable. But actually when the tough times hit your job security might be lower, particularly as we're seeing the cost of living crisis, kind of really start to bite. This conversation is shifting a little bit. I think around what proposition are you selling? Are you selling the cool fun culture? But your work, your gig economy might be going up and down, it might be a little bit different or are you selling a permanency and a long-term job? That's probably why the public service actually does really well over and over and over again in different employment, branding statistics and you know, desirable employers, they are consistently really high and not many people think of their culture as super exciting. I know they do great work and they do really meaningful work, but there are many that would not perceive them as the most dynamic of uh places to work. However they do offer, you know, they offer a lot of development, they offer a lot of security to employment, generally speaking. And so they've always been popular, but in tough times like right now, they are even more popular with uh with individuals. So it's a really interesting time to think about you know, what culture are you selling to the market?
[00:25:25] spk_1: It is interesting, Nina and something that I was reflecting on as you were speaking there as well is perhaps the risk propensity of the individual based on the phase of life that they're in. I know, you know, and you're very right in saying through COVID, the very sexy tech companies, you know, like we've seen companies like Twitter have mass layoffs through COVID overvaluing their stock and things like that and then having to cut costs. So they're the ones that are sort of known for this work, hard play, harder culture that attracts potentially, I would maybe suggest a certain person who's in a certain phase of life. Maybe they don't need as much security, maybe they have more hours to dedicate, take to their career than they do family and things like that. Do you find in your work, Nina that there's a certain demographic or a certain lifestyle phase that people are in that are attracted to the brand that you're working with or do you have sort of a talent attraction strategy where you can sort of fluctuate benefits and offers based on what the individual is looking
[00:26:23] spk_2: for? Well, I have a different point of view on it actually.
[00:26:26] spk_1: Oh, I'd love to hear it.
[00:26:28] spk_2: My point of view is that actually we sometimes like to uh generalize a little bit too much with some of the generational differences. And I think there's a little challenge with that. I see many individuals across different age and uh career stages wanting the same things. And I know there's a lot of research out there talking about the different generations and they wanna need different things. But there's some needs that we have as humans. Like many people want to buy a house. Right. We are obsessed with it in Australia. It's like a national sport looking at auction results in Melbourne. Honestly, I love them and I haven't bought a house in at least 10 years and I love the auction results. Right. So I think it is a national sport and home ownership and home buying is something that's deeply ingrained in our norms and psyche for Australia. And so that actually then drives your employment needs and your security of employment needs, it changes that risk tolerance that you talked about a little bit. When you want to go to the bank and get a home loan, you need secure permanent employment to access that loan. Yes, you're gonna want, you might be open to more diverse development options, but for sure than others, but your needs are relatively the same as someone that's maybe midway through their career that's doing the hard yards with the mortgage payments. Right. So there's a similar need set there. So I think it's organizations can market the what they're offering across different demographics and different age demographics rather than trying to generalize and pull out different. It's in their toolkit to attract a certain demographic. I think there's a mistake in that sometimes as well.
[00:27:59] spk_1: Oh, I'm loving that. Thank you so much, Nina. What
[00:28:02] spk_0: I'm also hearing is I think there's maybe what we tend to overlook is this fundamental human need that we have for some level of sort of stability and security. And I think that it's easy to sort of, you know, characterize younger generations, younger people as being more purpose driven and just wanting the experience. But I think particularly off the back of a pandemic, you know, all of us irrespective of age are probably seeking consciously or otherwise a little bit more, you know, that security, that stability, that consistency about our work experience and work can really offer that as almost a safe haven when other things in life are less predictable. So I think that's a really important point to elucidate. Now,
[00:28:38] spk_1: Nina, you mentioned earlier that the workplace culture that you work in also has dispersed team members. This is something that we're seeing increasingly prevalent across all sectors, all industries. I think the moment work seems to feel like it's becoming more of an ecosystem than it is this typical bricks and mortar place. You go with a full time sort of employment structure. So I'd love to know from you, you know, what are some of the biggest challenges to creating a healthy culture amongst dispersed teams? And what are some of the strategies that you've used in your workplace to overcome these challenges.
[00:29:14] spk_2: Yeah, it's such an interesting one. I'm sure there's reams of phd s going on about just working, you know, teams and how to,
[00:29:24] spk_1: yeah, we'll know in 10 years,
[00:29:26] spk_2: but we will know in 10 years and I'm sure they'll have some great insights for those of us that are leading large teams. A lot of the roles I had recently, I led a team of about 85 people and they were all around Australia and that it is super tricky to connect all those different individuals and help them feel part of the team like they belong in the team and they're part of it. Now, there was a gift and a bit of a silver lining to the COVID situation and that was we were all online and that meant that it, again, it's a unique opportunity to kind of connect with everyone online and you have a different kind of conversation when everybody's online, I'm noticing as you might be noticing in meetings. Now, when you've got some people online and some people in the room, we haven't landed. How do we interact in that hybrid environment in the right way. So everyone's part of the conversation. I've got to say I sometimes I prefer being online so I can do the chat when you're in the meeting room. Yes, you've got the physical connection, but you miss out on the chat and the chat is sometimes the best fit. So, you know, it's really, everyone thinks, oh, I'm not in the room. What a shame. No. Let me tell you sometimes it's better to be online and doing the chat. So I think it's a really interesting conversation that we're having in corporate life right. Now. How do you connect when some people, it's even more complicated now, when some people are in person, some people are dispersed. How do you do that? And again, I think it's, this actually be deliberate about your practices, actually. Think about it. Think what would I want as an individual? How do I want to be treated? What are some of the little things? And it's not the big things. Yes, we do the team conversations, the big team get togethers and those types of things. But what are the little things you can do for your team to help them feel like they belong and they're part of it. And when I say little things, I mean, things like uh texts. So for, I'll just give an quick example, my team, you know, will let me know when they're off sick, which is fine. No problems at all. I work really hard if they're not with me in the office to text them the next day and check in or if I know they've got something on or something. I work really hard on teams to send them a pin for my dispersed team. I work extra hard at the online connection points. Work is so busy you're running from meeting to meeting, call to call and sometimes you can let your texts and teams slip a little actually saying that to your team. Sometimes I get back a bit slow because I'm back to back meetings. That's helpful. But being extra mindful for the dispersed teams I find because often they're waiting to hear back from you and that's how I want to be treated. I wanna know even just a thumbs up emoji is a good start. Just that connection point digitally really, really important. So, you know, I hope others are able to, you know, do some of those things because it's, I've been that person. I've worked in Brisbane when head office was in Melbourne and I was the geographically dispersed person. It can be a really lonely place. Sometimes if you've got not, you know, work colleagues to go for a coffee with and bounce around with. So those little mindful things I think are really important and having opportunities where you can get together in person because you're not gonna work in person all the time by building those personal relationships so that when you do come together digitally, you can talk about things other than work. So even now I start some of my team meetings, we've been working together for a while. Sometimes I start my team meetings with nothing about work at all. We're not even gonna talk about work, we talk about weekends, we talk about our pets, we talk about other things. This is actually people tell me they love it. They say we wanna start all our meetings like that. This is great and what it actually is designed for why I do it is so that the people that don't work here in the middle in head office feel connected to their teammates. They know their pets, they know and they can talk about their life and they've got that sort of social connection bin. It only takes five or 10 minutes out of a meeting. But my team tell me, they love that, that's the best part of a meeting. And I understand and respect that when you're not working with your colleagues, shoulder to shoulder in the office, those moments of social connectivity at work really important. So they sound like little things but lots of little things like that through the day, they just become how you operate as a leader. They're not, you know, super forced or anything like that. I think are the ways to help, you know, dispersed teams feel really connected and that they belong in the team.
[00:33:24] spk_1: Thank you, Nina. And I think one of the biggest challenges are the dispersed teams where you do have some of the people in the room and some not. And I'm so glad that you went there because I think that sort of implicit proximity bias that we all have just to preface what's right in front of us is so easy to kind of fall into that trap. And there is that little bit of out of sight, out of mind. And if someone's not in the office or, you know, I've worked on teams where there are certain members of the team, not even in the same country and never are in the same country. So it can feel like they're very much not a part of what's happening in the sort of real world dynamic of the team. And so I'm just very grateful that you were able to share some of those real life examples of how you sort of counteract that proximity bias in yourself and ensure that they're still feeling like they're getting the same amount of time attention care as you've already mentioned and connection to the team as well because it is really challenging. But I do feel that when we're very intentional about it, as you mentioned, we really can overcome that by putting some of those communication practices into play in how we lead. So thank you for giving us so many incredible examples there.
[00:34:28] spk_0: Thanks. And I think you, as Lex mentioned, you've given us some really practical examples of sort of how we can build this sort of interconnective fiber almost between the teams. So that by knowing, you know, that person's dog's name or knowing that that person has this going on on the weekend, it, it then makes things like asking for help or reaching out that little bit more easy and that little bit more, you know, sense of belonging and connection to one another, which is so important, particularly when we're working in, you know, remotely or in a different way. Now, I'd love to come back to, uh you know, we could talk all day and all night with you about your experience. It's been such a delight chatting you with you Nina. But I'd love to come back a little bit to the concept that you kind of mentioned outside of our conversation around positivity and using a sort of a positive approach to overcoming challenge. And just if you have, you know, I'm sure there are leaders who are listening now who are like, oh, I would really like to adopt that kind of practice in my team. I'd like to be able to bring without it being, as you said, without it being sort of naive or toxic positivity, but being able to bring the lens of joy of excitement, perhaps around challenges. What kind of tips or ideas might you have for leaders to be able to start creating that culture? If you will in the team of focusing on the positive and bringing that that kind of mindset when things are challenging. Yeah,
[00:35:45] spk_2: sure. Sally, this is actually the hardest question all that you've asked me. Really, it is because I don't think there is a magic formula to this. I don't think there's a magic wand that can fix this. And actually, I don't actually know the answer. But let me say this. That's kind of the point. I really don't know the answer. There is this idea. I guess that it's the humility and awareness that you actually as a leader, you don't know all the answers business and nor should you know all the answers. That's not what being a leader is all about. What's worked for me over the years and over time is me saying to my team about it really early, actually sharing my own needs. Actually, often I ask my team for help, they're offered more of an expert on the topics that I am. And so I use little phrases and things like, hey, can I bounce something off you? Hey, I really like your ideas on this or your input on this. Can we work this out together because there's something magical about people full feeling needed and that their leader wants them to guide them and help them? I don't know the science. I'm sure there's a science thing around it that plays into that, but there's something about being really vulnerable with not knowing that invites people into the conversation and helps them be part of what you're trying to do and achieve. I haven't got the answer to it, but that's kind of what I've sort of worked out at this point in my career and I'm sure over the next 2030 40 years, I'll continue to learn on that point. So let's come back to it in 20 or 30 years. But one of the things, the other things I do to try and help teams, so that's kind of it on an individual level, how I do it on a team level. When you're setting, we're setting goals and lots of organizations go through goal setting, you know, conversations which are really important to understand what needs to be achieved. Almost always with my teams, we'll talk about, let's talk about how we're going to achieve our goals. What's the feeling and the perception we want in the team and of the team. How do we want others to talk about when they're talking about our team and our work in the corridors and around the organization? How are we gonna show up as a team? What does that look like? Sometimes I even take that idea just a little step further and coin it into a phrase so that we can remind ourselves day to day how we want to show up. So whether we want to show up as fun as experts as, you know, we're reliable, we meet our commitments, we've got high quality work, there's lots of different things, but how you wanna do your work, how you wanna be known, how you want feel as part of this team is so important as almost as important as what you're going to achieve. You almost can't achieve the what without understanding the how in my point of view. And perhaps if I can just end by saying, I had a great leader that I was working with. She was the lab manager at the refinery. I worked at uh in Brisbane that I mentioned earlier and she shared with me this idea which I've sort of taken forward, which is just be yourself on purpose, just be yourself on purpose. And it's so funny that the best version of yourself, the best version of yourself as a leader is actually when you're just being you and that looks different for different people. And it's kind of, for me, it means being a bit comfortable with my nerdy dorky goodness. I'm a bit of a nerd. I'm a bit dorky, but being really comfortable with that as a leader has actually helped me be the best version of myself so far and I'll continue to work on it and evolve it all the time, but it kind of helps me be my best version. So I'll leave you with that. That thought beautiful
[00:39:03] spk_1: Nina. Thank you. You just ooze authenticity and human leadership. And this has been such a delightful, warm conversation and we're so grateful for you to share so much of your incredible insights there. I think leaders like yourself who are able to lean into that vulnerability and show up as your nerdy dorky authentic self really creates space for other people to do the same. And I think it gets only through shining our own light in that way that we actually allow other people to feel safe to do the same. So thank you so much for having such a joyous conversation with us, Nina and we are human leaders. We're deeply grateful. Thank
[00:39:39] spk_2: you so much for having me. I've really enjoyed it and as uncomfortable as it is for me to talk for an hour or so like this, I have really enjoyed it. So thank you for having me today. Oh, it's beautiful.
[00:39:49] spk_0: Thanks Nina. Thank you so much for joining us at. We are human leaders. I hope you got as much out of this conversation with Nina Pollard. As we did, you can book human leadership workshops for your team, join our human leaders community and learn more about the human leadership framework at www dot We are human leaders dot com. Thanks so much. See you next time.