Attuning to Conscious Leadership with Diana Chapman
Welcome to We Are Human Leaders. In this conversation on We Are Human Leaders we speak with Diana Chapman Co-Founder of the Conscious Leadership Group about what it means to attune to conscious Leadership. We explore the necessity of IQ, EQ and EQ as a conscious Leader and discuss practical ways Leaders can step into their full body wisdom.
Diana Chapman is the Co-Founder of the Conscious Leadership Group and the Co-Author of the book, The 15 Commitment of Conscious Leadership. Her passion is to help organizational leaders and their teams eliminate drama in their workplace and beyond. She has worked with over 1000 CEOs around the world and is a well-respected facilitator for the Young Presidents Organization (YPO), Diana works with forums and chapters worldwide.
She has been a speaker at Wisdom 2.0, Mindful Leadership Summit, Stanford Graduate School of Business, TedX and more. When Diana is not with her clients, you will likely find her gardening at her suburban homestead in the Santa Cruz Mountains of California. She lives there with her husband of over 30 years.
For accessible access, view the podcast with closed captions below and access the full conversation transcript.
Episode Transcript:
Spk0 Alexis Zahner Spk1 Sally Clarke Spk2 Diana Chapman
[00:00:08] spk_0: Welcome back to the We are Human Leaders podcast. I'm Alexis Zahner and together with my co host Salle Clarke today we're talking all things conscious leadership with co founder of the conscious leadership group, Diana Chapman. In today's conversation we dive into the 15 commitments of a conscious leader and take a deep dive into the whole body Yes. How to lead with your I Q E and B Q in mind. Now Diana chapman is passionate about helping organizational leaders and their teams eliminate drama in the workplace and beyond. She has worked with over thousands of C. E. O. S around the world and is a well respected facilitator for the young presidents organization. Diana works with forums and chapters worldwide. She has also been a speech wisdom to know the mindful leadership summit stanford Graduate School of Business and more. When Diana's not with her clients, you'll likely find her gardening at her suburban home set in santa cruz mountains of California, where she lives with her husband of over 30 years. It is impossible to walk away from this conversation without a new conscious leadership insight and we can't wait for you to hear it. Let's dive in.
[00:01:24] spk_1: Welcome Diana, it's so delightful to have you with us on the We are human leaders podcast. We'd love it if you could start by telling us a little bit about your own personal journey and what's brought you to your current role working in conscious leadership.
[00:01:39] spk_2: Okay, well I would say that ever since I was a child. I was very sensitive to being around others when they were in reactivity. I could tell when they were reactive versus responsive. And I remember always being anxious around reactive people. And so there was a motivation in me to see how can I help people be less reactive. And so that was something that just early on was always the center of my attention. And then as I got older, I discovered all kinds of things and tools and processes out there that people can use. And so I studied them all for how to help people and myself shift out of reactivity and into a real state of presence and openness and curiosity. And so I've decided to take what I've learned and share it with as many people as I can, so that we can collectively minimize the drama that happens inside of us and amongst us.
[00:02:39] spk_0: That's fascinating. Diana that I heard you say that you recognize this from a young age, that you were uncomfortable around reactive people. Would you mind telling me, you know, when did that start for you? Was it like as a child, as an adolescent? And what were some of the markers where you noticed that you were uncomfortable around people in a state of reactivity?
[00:02:57] spk_2: Yeah, I can remember being three and four years old and feeling it. I remember like writing a letter to all the adults at thanks living in the United States. Oh
[00:03:05] spk_0: my goodness, wow.
[00:03:06] spk_2: Like, I think maybe I was 10 saying, Hey, you know, you're in some reactivity and we need to look at this and I asked my cousins, do you all want to sign this letter with me? And they were all saying no, but I couldn't help it because I think I'm very sensitive, I feel what other people feel in their bodies. So when I'm around people who are contracted and reactive and anxious, I feel it. And so that was my way to deal with it was to see could I help them shift so that I could relax too. And that's been like that. I've now learned that I can turn it off. I don't have to feel what other people are feeling. So I don't have to be. So at the effect of that as I was when I was young,
[00:03:43] spk_0: That's such a fascinating adaption from a young age, I think, you know, quite often, kids who are hypersensitive, maybe retreat from that or don't know how to regulate their emotions when they're in that state of sort of contagion from other people's emotions. It's so fascinating that you came across that and found that from a young age, you know, almost profound. So, you know, I want to know then talking about conscious leadership and sort of feeding into that direction now where you work with leaders to develop this, what exactly does it mean being a conscious leader? What does that mean to you?
[00:04:13] spk_2: So I define conscious is can I be here now, which in and of itself is really challenging because when we get scared, we're often out in the future trying to predict it, you know, and control it or we're back in the past time to fix it or you know, change it in some way. And so first of all, can I just be here and then can I be here in a non triggered, non reactive state, which is easier said than done because we're all wired with these egos, these identities for whom its job is to keep us alive and protected. And so were often out scanning for threats and so it really takes practice to learn how to not be triggered and reactive and so I spend a lot of time learning the most practical tools and then sharing them more broadly so people can learn how to have that experience.
[00:05:04] spk_1: I love that you mentioned the word presence there and it does sound like that's a very sort of core component of conscious leadership of the capacity to really be sort of alive in the present moment. Now I would love to get a little granular here and almost hear from you. How would you describe presence and impact that it has on leadership?
[00:05:22] spk_2: Okay, that's a great question. I love this question. So when I'm present, I'm really open and I think open is really one of the key words I'm open in my mind meaning I'm really curious and willing to learn rather than wanting to hold a position and defend it, I'm open in my heart, meaning I'm open both to being in connection with others and I'm also open to my emotions and your emotion. And then I'm open in my body, which means I'm willing to be with all the sensory experiences that start to show up in my body, including, you know, if my stomach is swirling or my chest is tight or my jaw is clenching that I'm willing to be with all that rather than trying to contract around it. So open, open, open head, heart gut is one, a big part of being present. Another one is about really being interested in learning over being right and another one is being a state of play with what is going on around me and even with the serious things like we just found out that the network went down, you know, can I play with that rather than be so at the effect of it. So those are some of the things that I used to define what it is to be present.
[00:06:36] spk_1: I love that. And I think it reminds me a lot of some of the work in buddhism buddhist meditation practice that I do, where it's around saying yes to what is, and that doesn't mean that you're saying, oh great or fabulous or you know, everything's hunky dory to what is, but by saying, yes, you're just acknowledging the truth of what is right now, rather than resisting it does that resonate.
[00:06:58] spk_2: Exactly, yeah, I'm not going to argue with reality, so if this is the way reality is showing up right now, I'm not going to argue or resist it and I'm open to respond to it and part of my response might be to do what I can to change something.
[00:07:14] spk_0: Yeah, it feels like that conscious reframe really to me, it's that, you know, well firstly as a mindfulness practitioner as well and sally, you know, just alluded to the link to sort of buddhist practices as well, but for me it calls for us to have that present moment awareness, so that self awareness of actually being able to tune in those experiences and then adopting some of those, I mean in mindfulness there the attitudes of mindfulness that nonjudgmental open awareness, which is such a beautiful place to be and especially through communication and through our relationships with
[00:07:43] spk_2: others. Yes, and if I am judging, can I just be open to the fact that I'm judging right now and not that wrong, just oh judgment is here
[00:07:53] spk_0: just witness, that's
[00:07:55] spk_2: just part of being human, is that we judge
[00:07:57] spk_1: Absolutely, it is a natural that is just part of having the human brain, isn't it? Like if I think if we and I'm a former lawyer so often found this quite this idea that we don't judge, that we can be completely unbiased and switch that off is kind of denying the state of being human. So it's important to be aware
[00:08:14] spk_2: of exactly when I remember I'm in a group that says we're not judging. I always say good luck with that. I don't know how that's possible, even positive. It's always a judgment. You
[00:08:26] spk_1: mentioned dana that you focus and you use the words curiosity and play earlier, which I love. You mentioned on your website that you focus on ending drama through curiosity and play. And I'd love to hear from you how what you see is the dangers of drama perhaps even what drama is and looks like, how you would describe that, what the dangers are for for leaders and then how curiosity and play can help us end drama.
[00:08:50] spk_2: Okay, as long as I'm a human being, I've got this hind brain and my hind brain gets reactive which means I'm going to pay a drama tax every day no matter what. I'm going to have some drama. Whether that drama is just with me and myself, with me and others with me in the group, with me in the world, with me and the war in Ukraine with me and whatever I'm going to have some drama. However, I can minimize the drama tax. I pay every day and the reason why I see that leaders want to minimize the drama tax is because that drama uses up a certain amount of energy and creativity. And if you can minimize that, then you can repurpose that creativity and energy into things that create what you most want in your work. That's
[00:09:35] spk_0: a really interesting point because I think often where I see leaders get stuck and certainly I've been a victim to this in the past as well, is not identifying the end state that you want to be in. So you get stuck in the drama and you're not even able to identify that it's unproductive place to be in.
[00:09:53] spk_2: Yes, Exactly.
[00:09:55] spk_0: Yeah. And so something else. We were reading a recent article from You Diana and you mentioned in this article that you told a client, don't tell us that you're here to change the game. If you're not willing to do your own deep work. Human leaders, I must say we resonate with this. We essentially, you know, don't want to work with teams whose leadership aren't willing to do the work as part that but we'd love to know from you, why do you feel like it's important to do your own deep work as leaders who really truly do want to change the game.
[00:10:28] spk_2: Well, great, because I see it this way. We've created a lot of struggle here on planet Earth because we've been in states of threat. And so if we really want to change that thing out there, we ourselves have to get out of the state of threat that created it. And that means I've got to do my own inner work to see where that state of threat still exists, including like, you know, for a lot of leaders are still threatened to feel their anger or threatened to feel their sadness or their fear. So if you're threatened to even feel your feet, how are you going to really be able to live in a state of trust that could actually create a new paradigm that creates permanent and sustainable change.
[00:11:15] spk_1: That's beautiful. It kind of makes me think as well that it's almost like if we can't acknowledge the limitations within us, if we can't work with almost that the enemy within, if we can't overcome that, then the idea that we're ever going to be actually able to have meaningful impact on the external world is really false. We're kidding ourselves. But I think it's often for leaders, there's this historically there's been this idea that leadership is about, it's about controlling or directing others, right? So it's like it is about external control and power. So it does feel like a little bit of a shift and certainly one that we believe in human leaders, but a bit of a shift to focus on the internal work. Is that something that you in your work sort of come up against as people resistant or is it something that you feel like leaders are starting to see the essential nature of this internal work.
[00:12:04] spk_2: I definitely think people have been resistant in the past and still are especially people who are afraid of suffering various and others and somehow believe suffering is fundamentally bad. Most of the most valuable change and growth that has happened to me has come when I have suffered. So if somebody were to say you shouldn't suffer, I would say I don't agree because it's been a gift in my life. Now, that doesn't mean I still don't want to help support ending a significant amount of suffering, but I'm not interested in making it in and of itself a problem. And so I think there's a real difference between helping reduce suffering without making suffering bad or wrong versus helping reduce suffering because suffering is bad and wrong. It's a very different mindset and one I think could actually be sustainably productive and the other one will continue to keep creating short bursts of temporary relief.
[00:13:01] spk_0: And I guess that's a fascinating piece about suffering and I really appreciate that you acknowledge its necessity in life because, you know, in our work as well, we We often see that people avoid everything that feels uncomfortable, suffering is uncomfortable states like grief, sadness, anger are inherently feel uncomfortable and perhaps for some folks feel deeply unsafe in our body, but they are 50% of what it means to be a human being and they are half of our emotional state. And it's almost in my experience that this expectation or constant chase towards feeling only comfortable emotions is actually what keeps us in suffering long. Has that been your experience as well?
[00:13:40] spk_2: Diana? Absolutely. I actually say my motto these days is comfort is not your friend because I think that it's the avoidance of discomfort that is causing so much contraction
[00:13:52] spk_0: agreed. And I think there's this dialogue that we see so often in social media and the media around positivity and these sorts of things. And I guess we're not really understanding at a granular level how to be in these States or what it truly means to be an optimistic human being versus a toxic lee, positive human being and just being avoided and bypassing those things that do make us uncomfortable. And certainly in leadership, I know recently in Australia there was research published that basically suggested that Australian managers and leaders have a really big issue with handling uncomfortable things head on. So uncomfortable conversations, giving feedback, basically dealing with anything that they feel more might create conflict they'll avoid. And as a result we see stagnation in things like innovation, creativity. We see diminishing and things like psychological trust in teams because by not addressing sort of the elephant in the room quite often and by bypassing that and avoiding that were actually kind of creating this false sense of security in our teams as well at work. And I think it's an ego play for a lot of leaders. If they don't have to feel uncomfortable, then maybe the problem doesn't exist and I don't know because I know Diana, you're based in the States, do you see that? Like is there a similar sort of cultural avoidance of conflict and uncomfortable things in the workplace as well?
[00:15:11] spk_2: I think it's exactly the same as what you all are dealing with. And honestly, I think it's pretty universal. I work all over the globe and it's pretty consistent everywhere in the top management leadership schools in United States all agree Eq emotional intelligence trumps I. Q ineffective management and so people are not comfortable with these emotions, but and the challenge of that is then you don't access their intelligence. So for example, the intelligence of anger, not righteous anger, but just a good clean anger says, hey, something here is no longer serving me or my people stop. You know, that's love. Anger is an expression of intelligence that says stop evolve sadness, especially, you know, in companies startups, I work with a lot of startup leaders, they're constantly sad because of course they had these beautiful visions for how they thought their product was going to take off and then, you know, they didn't get the users they wanted and they have to grieve. And if they don't grieve, the intelligence, sadness says, you know, a vision you had needs to be let go of or there's an end that needs to be grieved. And so if they don't grieve, they can't actually be present to how it really is now. And then Fear the intelligence of fear, Fear says, hey, wake up something needs to be learned right now you're in the unknown and that's so wise. Like it's like a best friend, you know, similar to when you learn to drive a car, Fear is there because fear is saying pay attention. You're not used to looking at all these mirrors and the gas and the brake. But then once you really learn the fear settles, oh look you've got it, I'll settle down now. And so one of the big passions I have is how do we really celebrate the wisdom and intelligence of fear, sadness and anger help people get comfortable feeling those in their bodies because they show up typically in different parts of the body and how do we learn to open and breathe and welcome those sensations rather than trying to stop and control them.
[00:17:09] spk_0: I think that's so important Diana. And interestingly to add to that. I've recently been studying frameworks around the decision making process under periods of deep uncertainty. And for a long time there's been this argument that emotions are considered to be irrational and therefore shouldn't be considered in the decision making process and in particular in deep uncertainty. But interestingly, covid and the last few years has presented us this situation where normally what we would rely on in circumstances of uncertainty to make decisions is passed information predictions around the future. Looking at those cost benefits of certain decisions. However, when the future becomes so deeply unpredictable. What I appreciate about you just saying is that emotions become a very rational part of that decision make process because they can be used intelligently to tap into the underlying message is that they're giving us, as you said grief and you know the need to iterate or end a certain product or M. V. P. As a startup. That was a fascinating through line of emotions in it in that organizational setting that I hadn't considered that often. We get stuck wanting to persevere with something because we're actually uncomfortable with the grief that comes from letting it go versus it's that sunk cost of everything we've invested into that and it feels so painful to let go of it. But when we're able to actually recognize that it's the emotion driving us to continue with that decision and to you know further sink resources, time energy into a project that's not serving us. That's just a fascinating turn or a fascinating addition to that decision making process when we can tune into the intelligence of those emotions. I really really like that piece.
[00:18:48] spk_2: Exactly. We have a term in the United States called Veruca, are you guys familiar with this term?
[00:18:55] spk_0: Yeah, volatility, uncertainty, complexity, ambiguity for anyone who's not familiar with it listening.
[00:19:01] spk_2: Yeah. And so we talk about how we're entering this stage of vodka and so like you were explaining before the ways we used to be able to create in the world used to be much more predictable A plus B equals C. But that's not the case anymore. And so what I'm doing is working with my clients on how do you navigate decision making when you just can't predict. And so we work a lot with this concept of whole body. Yes and a whole body. No. And the idea is how do make that the most effective leaders are using their head heart and gut all three centers of intelligence and our argument is each center is equally intelligent and when they're combined, we call that whole body intelligence. That's where leaders can make their most effective decisions, especially in Avoca era.
[00:19:48] spk_0: That's big head hot. Yes, that's huge. I love that.
[00:19:51] spk_2: Yeah. We call whole body. Yes. And I have a very elaborate description of what is a whole body. Yes. How do you practice? You can learn more about that at whole body. Yes. Dot com and I learned this from Kathlyn Hendricks who I think was the originator of the whole idea and it is just taking off right now and people are saying that they are finding their effectiveness leading to significantly they feel so much more confident using this three centers. I
[00:20:20] spk_1: think it's fantastic that you're bringing this awareness beyond the limitations of our our brain mind intelligence as you mentioned earlier, that the successful leaders will often have, you know emotional intelligence almost higher than their intellectual intelligence. But I think we often were promoted because of our intellectual capacities. So then it's wonderful that people are then given the opportunity to develop emotional intelligence alongside of that. And you mentioned the gut as well. And I'm obviously I'm gonna go straight to the website after this conversation to learn more about it. But I'm just wondering if you could very briefly share with this what that experience of the whole body is might be like, I can imagine it's not that there's some complexity to it, but if there's if you can give us a brief synopsis that would be amazing.
[00:21:03] spk_2: Sure. So we have I Q E Q. And then BQ BQ is body intelligence. And we aren't we haven't been talking much about that yet. EQ has been, you know, the most recent thing. But body intelligence is equally wise and body intelligence is this instinctual knowing, it doesn't use data. It uses instinct. And how that might feel is like for me when I consider a possibility my body might like a warms up a little bit. There's a rise up energetically in my body when there's a yes and when there's a no, my body cools a little bit and the energy moves down downward through my body and that's a no. And it's very reliable for me. It's like a compass that I can use as much as I can use my emo and my intelligence to make decisions and so we work a lot with leaders to help them understand because everybody's bodies are different. And so we take people through a little guided meditation in which they can learn for themselves. How does it feel in their bodies when they have a yes versus and no. And then start to practice that. Usually we say, let's practice with small little decisions that don't have big consequences and then they build confidence when they see how supportive that intelligence is and then you can start to use it on bigger decisions.
[00:22:23] spk_0: That is so fascinating. And as you were speaking, I was sort of reflecting on certain sort of physiological or body cues that I know I get often when I'm doing something that isn't a yes. And interestingly for me, I know there's been instances where I've said yes to something, but I'm feeling that kind of tightening in my muscles, perhaps a little bit of a throb behind and one of my eyes as well, a bit of a headache when I feel like I have to put myself in social situations that I'm not interested in. But I've said yes, you know from a people pleasing perspective or out of obligation. And it's interesting because I definitely think that as we can become more present and conscious as you spoke about earlier, it's not until we do that, that we can start to notice the ways in which our body is signaling to us. No, but we tend to override them with the
[00:23:13] spk_2: Exactly. And I think most people know they have that little body intelligence, some people are less connected to it because maybe they've really relied on their intellect perhaps, and they got so many goodies from that, that they stayed there, but they recognize when they include the instincts that they even better at what they do.
[00:23:31] spk_1: Yeah, I think as a finance lawyer who went through burnout about 12 years ago, I remember the first time someone asked, you know, where do you feel that in your body? There's an emotion that you're having, where do you feel that in your body? And I felt such disconnection from my body, it's been a real journey of learning to observe and respect the signals that it gives, which is what I have not been doing and that's how I ended in burnout. And I think there is a lot of the messages that we receive in our society are driven towards overriding the bodily signals and ignoring the BQ in order to achieve a particular outcome in our careers.
[00:24:03] spk_2: Yeah, exactly,
[00:24:05] spk_1: Yeah, I'd love to shift slightly Diana because I know your co authored the bestselling book the 15 commitments of conscious leadership, a new paradigm for sustainable success. And I'm really curious to hear, I think specifically which of the commitments you've found personally most challenging, which is required the most inner work for you to truly commit to.
[00:24:27] spk_2: Okay, so the commitment that's the most challenging for me is commitment six, which is around I commit to living a life of integrity. And when we say integrity, we mean energetic wholeness and sometimes my energetic wholeness says to myself, no, I don't want to do that, but then my personality says, but I want them to like me. And so I can sometimes tend to say yes when it's really not in integrity with me. And so we were speaking a little bit about that just a moment ago, and so that can still be difficult at times. Also, I just don't like disappointing people. And so sometimes I'm really challenged with like, oh, I I'm so sorry, I have to say no here. So that's where I still find my biggest edge.
[00:25:09] spk_0: Yeah. And it's interesting you link this idea of integrity to an internal sense because I think often integrity is very much linked to keeping our word, you know, saying something and making sure we follow through with it and our treatment of others. But I think often we overlook, as you mentioned, the internal signals of integrity, Is this my whole body? Yes in the first place. So before I even say yes, is it something I want to say yes to. So then we're not sort of feeling like we're breaking that integrity with someone else down the track when we're doing something and not bring our whole selves and our whole energy to that. Yeah,
[00:25:39] spk_2: exactly. Like this happens in teams that I support, you know, they'll say, they'll hold integrity, like I have to keep my, you know, agreement. And so they'll say, okay, you're right, all right, I'll get that done. But then because they don't have that internal yes, they blow it off again and don't follow through and then people are upset and then it creates some drama. And so I support people and saying you have to come back if it's not honest, you're probably going to have an integrity glitch that's going to create nana nana and waste all of your creative energy.
[00:26:10] spk_1: And that's really down again to that sense of presence that you mentioned earlier, I think Diana in terms of being able to be really aware of what is genuinely coming up and as you mentioned, those different parts and it's interesting because you I was reflecting myself on which of the commitments I probably struggled with most and for me it was also integrity and I think it's that being really brave enough to be honest with myself about what's truly going on in the most. Is there a component of people pleasing? Is there a component of me not wanting to disappoint? Because that's something I really, really struggle with, that creates a lot of discomfort for me. But I think it's really, it's back to that sense of being present and aware to what is happening, but also I think in the context of teams, what you're describing is being able to talk about it with each other, being able to say to acknowledge there's different things going on for me here. I want to do this, but I also, you know, it's maybe not coming from a really intrinsic motivation, but more something that I I want to keep you happy. So being able to have those conversations in a safe space within teams I imagine is very important component of conscious leadership.
[00:27:11] spk_2: Yes, I agree. And really, probably if I look at my integrity issues, they're almost always related to the commitment number 11, which I think most people would say is their most difficult commitment, which is would I be willing to source all the approval control and security from within. So, for example, when I'm not sourcing all the approval I've ever wanted from within, I'm then going to try to control people's approval of me outside of myself, which would get me out of integrity. And so or if I'm not willing to feel my feelings or let other people feel their feelings then be out of integrity. So it's one of the reasons why we have so many commitments is because they're all very intertwined and it's complicated, it's not just so simple and we decided we really wanted to map the territory of what really creates people going into that reactivity and creating drama.
[00:28:09] spk_0: I think that's really important that, you know, we have this framework in this map, as you've mentioned because I know in our work at human leaders, especially when we look at organizational cultures, we hear this word integrity thrown around quite loosely and I think that helps us really connect with what integrity is first and foremost on an individual level, which feels really important because that sort of sets us up at a foundational level for how we Move through the world. And I'd like to know diana on these 15 commitments of conscious leadership. Is there one in particular that feels like it stands alone right now is being the most important commitment for modern leaders right now. And if so why might that be? Well, I
[00:28:48] spk_2: think commitment number one really is the foundational commitment, which is I commit to take radical responsibility and we use the word radical because it's like going to the core is what radical means. So when a ceo comes to me and says Diana, I've got, you know, issues with my team not following up, I say to them, okay, teach me the course. I want to make sure my team doesn't follow up the way your team doesn't follow up, How do you make sure your team doesn't follow up? And at first the leader says, what are you talking about? It's not like I'm creating this and I say hold on a minute, look again, how are you responsible for them? Not following up. And so then when the Ceo stops and pauses, she or he will say, oh well I guess I can see how we don't have really clear agreements about who will do what by when. Great. Okay, there's one way you're creating the pattern, you know, I don't really have consequences put in place for if people don't follow up great, there's another way, So then the leader gets to come back and see, oh I'm the creator, This isn't happening to me, this is happening by me. And then the whole pattern can permanently shift. And so that I think is the number one most important commitment and honestly all the other commitments that we have are all just aspects of commitment. Number one,
[00:30:13] spk_1: it's incredibly resonant without work. Diana is one of the three core pillars of human leadership is radical responsibility. And I think what I'm hearing you say is this it's really owning our part in things and dropping a bit of the blame game. So dropping a kind of taking on a position of no, no, no, that's not my I didn't do that sort of absolving ourselves of blame instead of getting into judgment. It's about owning our role and our capacity to impact the world around us. And I think we also, it's something that we spoke to this earlier, but it can be a tendency that we have to get into blame as a kind of drama and getting stuck in there out of almost fear perhaps of shifting into a space of innovation, if that makes sense. So I'm curious is that resonated in terms of the sort of like blame driven narrative that we can get into being part of the drama that leaders can be susceptible to.
[00:31:06] spk_2: Absolutely. I think it's the key pieces somehow not taking responsibility that I'm the creator. And so we have this little shift move called teach the class like imagine you've been hired by a major university to teach a course on how to create the problem you're complaining about. And it's my favorite shift move because we usually have them be funny and playful about it to like pretend you're a professor and what's a creative name for your course. And so they like well have them teach it to each other like as if they are a professor and everybody giggles and we start to bring a little levity to it and they start to really go like light bulbs start going off of okay, I see how I'm keeping this going and very liberating to teach the class
[00:31:47] spk_1: amazing. And I can imagine also liberating for the participants as well because bringing that sense of curiosity and levity and play to a space that I think we're conditioned to treat so seriously as if everything has to be super serious as if being an adult male, We can only ever be serious. I think this can really break open the way we think and the way we behave the way we lead
[00:32:08] spk_2: right? Because as you guys know, you know human beings learn best when they are relaxed. So the more serious I am, the less relaxed I am and so so serious isn't going to win the game. It's relaxation creates the open space for some new learning. And so that's why in particular we find that when we start being silly and playful with our patterns, we really get to learn the most
[00:32:32] spk_1: amazing Diana. Thank you so much for your time with us today. I'd just love to finish with one final question for leaders who are wanting to really consciously lead and with the human centered focus as leaders, what would you advise as a kind of a next step or a starting point to step into a more conscious model of leadership?
[00:32:53] spk_2: Well I think just first of all the commitment in and of itself is really exciting. So I commit to learning to be a more conscious leader and the good news is there are so many wonderful resources out there and so I encourage people to go find books like our book and or websites that start to offer tools. We have a resource page. Our website is conscious dot is and on that page we've opened all of our content up there are video, those guided visualizations handouts and so we encourage everybody to go use that however they like and we also resource a lot of other places you know of other places that we know of that we think are great to get that journey started.
[00:33:33] spk_0: Diana thank you so much for being here with us and we are human leaders today. We've learned a lot from you and we have so much to go away and think about and continue learning as you mentioned through your website. So thank you so much for being here with us today. It's been an absolute pleasure.
[00:33:48] spk_2: Oh I'm so grateful to know of you all and just hear how much we're all on the same page and you know the beauty of your own work. So thank you so much for what you're doing and that part of the world and I feel like we're a team mates on the same team. Alright be well
[00:34:08] spk_0: thanks for joining us for this conversation with Diana chapman of the conscious leadership group to find out more about her work, her book the 15 commitments of conscious leadership and the whole body s visit conscious dot I. S. And if you're ready to evolve and shift the way that you lied to be more conscious and human centered. We invite you to join our community at www.wearehumanleaders.com. Thanks for being with us today and we'll see you for the next episode.